On How Book Proposals Land Publishing Deals

What do literary agents look for in a book proposal? Do nonfiction authors need a finished manuscript before approaching publishers? And how important are comp titles and author platforms when it comes to landing a traditional publishing deal?

In this episode of Talking Book Publishing, Kathleen Kaiser and Adanna Moriarty welcome book proposal expert Debra Eckerling to demystify the proposal process. Debra shares her Three C's framework—Concept, Context, and Content—and explains why a book proposal is far more than a publishing requirement. It's a sales and marketing document that helps agents, publishers, and editorial boards evaluate both the book and the author.

The conversation explores what makes a nonfiction book marketable, how authors can strengthen their platforms, why comp titles are critical to positioning a book, and the opportunities available to writers pursuing traditional publishing. Debra also shares insights from her own publishing journey and discusses the growing category of "memoir-plus" books that combine personal stories with actionable guidance.

Key Takeaways

•  A successful book proposal is built around Concept, Context, and Content. 
•  The overview, audience analysis, and comp titles are among the most important sections of a proposal. 
•  Most nonfiction books do not need to be completed before they are pitched to agents or publishers. 
•  Comp titles help prove market demand while demonstrating how your book fills a unique need. 
•  Publishers evaluate the author as much as the book itself. 
•  An author platform includes both online visibility and real-world credibility. 
•  Time spent waiting on submissions can be used to strengthen your platform and visibility. 
•  Memoir-plus books often have broader market appeal because they combine storytelling with practical takeaways.

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Transcript

kathleen (00:09.55)
Hello, I'm Kathleen Kaiser. Welcome to Talking Book Publishing. Along with my co-host Adanna Moriarty, we are welcoming Debra Eckerling, who is going to talk to us on a subject that stumps so many authors, book proposals. Welcome, Debra.

Thank you so much for having me. I I'm just I always love these opportunities where we can educate people because that's what helps them become a successful published author.

Absolutely. And for you know, traditional publishing deals still help. I mean, they I get all the emails from all the news sites and they're still signing people. But to do that, especially if you're a nonfiction or memoir writer, you need a book proposal. So what are the basics of a book proposal?

boiled it down to the three C's. So there's concept, context, and content. So concept is the first section of the proposal, which is starts with the overview. What is the book? What makes it unique? Why you are the best and only person who can write it and why people are going to read it. And then the next section is what's in the book. So it's expanding upon, you know, whether it's a memoir story arc or

different sections. It is actually the information conveyed in the book. And then book specs is where you talk about your genre, your word count, availability, and then the way in which you're going to illustrate the information. Are you doing case studies? Is it all is are there interviews or their facts or how-tos? And if you've got images

Debra (01:57.054)
You don't put them in the book proposal. There are only two places where you want to put images in the book proposal. First is the splash, which is the fun, if a picture's worth a thousand words, this is my book photo, and then your author photo. So that's you also list in the book specs. And that is your your concept. The next one is the context. Other people call it promotion, but I like alliteration. But it's basically where you are as a

Who the heck are you as the author? Where are you on and off lines? and why, what is the research behind the saleability of your book? So it's your author bio and photo, any reviews and testimonials, then you talk about your author platform, and from there it's marketing, audience, and then the comp title section. And then the third part is the actual content. I know you're you're probably wondering.

Wait, when do I talk about the book? So that's your table of contents, detailed outline and sample chapters, usually intro in two to three intro in about two chapters, about 25 pages, unless you're writing a memoir, in which case you'll do a sample, but a memoir is the only nonfiction genre that you need to write the entire book before you you start to sell it.

The book proposal is the sales and marketing document, which is is the proof of concept, proof of saleability. It is the document that is for you because you are not in the room. It's what you send to agents, what agents sent to publishers, and what publishers use to pitch your idea to their editorial board, so you get the green light.

How much, this is a question, that's very thorough what you just did, but how much, and this is something I I get hit on by people, the con their their the comp titles. How important is that that they know who their competition is?

Debra (04:01.752)
I think the three most important sections in the book proposal are the overview, the audience, and the comp titles. And in the comp because that's what any agent is actually going to look at first, because the overview is the the big picture. You know, what is your unique spin on the idea? Why you need to tell it and why people need this information, why they're gonna buy the book.

Audience is kind is the research that proves that you're saying people are gonna buy the book. Audience is a section where you you give research and links saying who's going to buy the book. And then the comm titles, that is where you want usually I always say five. Some people accept three, but I figure more is more. and what you want is five titles published traditionally within the last five years.

That have good rankings and a lot of reviews. And then the reason, and in that you're going to list the information, but you also need a couple lines saying what this book does, and then a couple lines or paragraphs saying why people who buy this book will also buy your book. So it's saying this book was great, but it misses this important factor. The author's book does this part. Or this is the first stage.

This book is the second stage. So you're looking for people who are looking for similar books, but proving that your book is different enough or filling a particular hole, so people who buy that book also need your book. the other thing that I'll mention, and this is why I like five, because if there's one book that's a little older or one book that was not traditionally published, you can put that like at the bottom.

Right. So you've got five, you can play with it. Because sometimes, and and this is one of the things that drives me nuts. There are some self-publishing success stories. They make everybody think that they can have a self-publishing success story. And maybe they will, but it is not very likely. the thing that I like about traditional publishing is you're going to get your book in front of people who you do not know. It is good because they're going to do

Debra (06:26.114)
the nitty-gritty, the the editing, the production, the distribution, and that all important credibility piece that you only get when someone says they like you and they want to put your book out in the world.

But because we've we've all heard the stories, this person sold so many books. Well, I'm gonna do that. That's easier. no, it isn't, because then you're doing everything when you look traditional. And why I love the book proposal so much is you're basically creating a coloring book for your book, right? This is your roadmap. So when you get the green light, you can easily write your book.

and go home titles, again, that is one of the most important sections because agents and publishers want books they can sell. Your job as an author is to give them one. And that's what a proposal does. It gives them that information.

Feel like this is such a place in writing that feels like it's like a mystery, you know, like it's mystified. Like it's so hard when you're writing or if you've never published or if you're just entering the world to even like have a an idea of where to begin. I mean, I always think that market positioning comp titles is a wonderful place for your own

your own research, like where does my book fall? Because how else are you gonna know even how to pitch it?

Debra (08:00.448)
Exactly. Exactly. In and what I tell in some people they've been living with their books in their head for years and they know all of the things. But a lot of them, first of all, doing the overview, which is the blueprint for everything else. It is the promise of the rest of the book and the book the rest of the book proposal and the book. But starting with the overview and then looking into audience. Okay, who what are the trends? Who's going to buy this book?

But especially the comp titles, because maybe you have one idea and in looking at comp titles, you see other people have done it. But you can look and say, but they missed this aspect of it. So that's what you're looking for is something that is, again, similar enough to prove that people buy this type of book, but different enough that they also need yours.

And the one important thing is you need to have read those books.

well I'm sorry, should I not have said did I miss that? Yes.

Read your cop titles. Yeah. I no, I've I've gotta tell you, you know, we I've been doing this what, so sixteen years almost. I have people they say and I said, Well, what about it's different? Well, I haven't read it. You know, it's like how do you know? How do you know really know? I know you have to read books. You to be a writer, you have to read. You have to know, especially if you're going to compete for their audience.

kathleen (09:34.242)
The one thing I found really interesting, a couple of years ago I was working, I had a client that was with Simon and Schuster in imprint. And there were, I think they she told me there were four of them inside the entire Simon and Schuster world that placed all the advertising on Amazon. And the one thing they did was program against the comp titles. They would only buy ads to go on those books' pages or those authors' pages with similar topics.

'Cause you can do that. And it was like, well, that's why you gotta know what your comp is. You know, you gotta know who they are, what they're covering, and why you're different.

Absolutely. And it helps in your book development pro if you don't know or if you're if you're ushy on your positioning, looking at the calm titles will help you.

Right.

Okay. I want to know how Debra got here. Like, I mean, we started right away with, you know, her formula for a good book proposal, but like, who are you? How did you get here? What what what was the thing that made you go like, you know, book proposals is something that I wanna dive into. And you know what I mean? Like, tell us your story.

Debra (10:55.074)
Would love to. So I started it's I've worked in a lot of different aspects of the book industry. I did events for Barnes Noble back when I lived in the Chicago suburbs in the 90s. I was a production editor also for a publishing company back there. And I led a goal group at this Barnes and Noble, which was all about what did you accomplish? What are you working on? How can we support you? What are your goals for next time?

When I moved to LA, I rebooted the group in 2002 and it started as a writer support group, but evolved into a group for writers, creatives, and entrepreneurs. Because if you're one, you're the other two. And in leading this in-person group, people would say, Deb, you're good at this. I've been trying for years to write my book. Can you help me? We got it done in three months. Or, Deb, you're good at this. Will you speak at my event? So I had been doing this and it was

in person, a hybrid, online, all the different iterations of it. and then my business background is project management and communication. I've been a writer for ever, as most of us are. Well th and this just as a side note, it always amused me because in a high school I thought I was gonna write the great American novel. So it amuses me terribly that I ended up in nonfiction.

What did happen is in my goal group, I was I would never ask anybody to set a goal I wasn't prepared to do myself. So I was trying to get into freelancing. I was writing these slice of life articles just so I had spec stories. And the week that I finished my first screenplay, I got my first freelance writing opportunity. And that always came easier. I always have something creative that I want to be working on, but

it was really like this is my jam because I I'd talk like I write like I talk. So definitely user-friendly in that aspect as well. So we're gonna fast forward to 2018. My main communication client was going away and I said, Okay, it's a sign to dive into goals. And my mom said to me, You hate smart goals, why don't you create D.E.B goals? And my name had worked with what I had been teaching for years.

Debra (13:19.5)
Which was the foundational aspects of figuring out what you want and how to get it. So Deb stands for determine your mission, explore your options, brainstorm your path. determine your mission. Can't get what you want unless you know what that is. Explore your options. Okay, what do I need to do to make that happen? Brainstorm your path. make a plan to get it all done. And I was planning, I had previously self published two books because I was helping people write books.

And I didn't want to be one of those do as I say, not as I do people. And I was planning to publish this third. And then I met my agent and he asked what I had been working on. And I told him I did these two. I'm going to self-publish this one. And he said, What is your goal? And I said, to be the person people think of when they hear the word goal. And he said, Okay, Deb, send me your book proposal. You wanna in that case, you wanna get your book out.

in a major way. So and this was almost exactly it was May 2018. So eight years did I blink. Anyway, wrote the proposal and he he had two adjustments. My detail outline needed to be more detailed, easy fix, and he wanted a sizzle reel, which is if you have

Whether or not you have one, technology is so easy. I basically merged together a couple of my podcast appearances, a speaking appearance. I did a couple lives on my phone and voila, a speaker reel. Those were the only adjustments he had. And so we sent it out in two batches over the summer and then in the fall, and in the fall, Brenda Knight, my publisher, showed interest.

In her first question was, are you okay if we change the title so it has goals in it? And I said yes, I knew you were going to say that. And then the second thing is we want to theme it up. And this is by the way, with a book proposal, why you do not write the whole book. Because you may encounter someone who likes you, who likes your vision, but has some recommendations to make the book even better, which really was the case with.

Debra (15:45.41)
The Dev Method, which is the book that became your goal guide, a roadmap for setting, planning, and achieving your goals. So we worked back and forth for several months. That book came out in January 2020. So six weeks before the world had changed by circumstance, out came my book to help people embrace change by choice or by circumstance. and remember when people said the pandemic was only gonna last two weeks? it was the book everybody needed.

Mm-hmm.

But no one knew it yet. But I ended up doing a lot of virtual speaking. I'm gonna fast forward again to fall 2023. I said to Brenda, isn't it time we do another book again? Sure. And that's that went out as 101 golden rules for success in business. And they came back and said, no, it needs to have goal in the title. So that book, 52 secrets for goal setting and goal getting.

How to stay focused, grow your network, and get more done in less time. That came out in January 2025. Talk about your keyword rich subtitle. I knew I had a feeling you would probably like that. But we like that. Yes, when I had sent that proposal in, it my publisher was like, Deb, this is really good. Do you do this? Is this part of your business? And I said, It's the Deb's secret menu. Should it stop being a secret?

And she said, yes, people slave for months over proposals and they do not know how to do it right. And from so that was two years ago. And so I still talk about goals. I write books on goals and lifestyle. but my that is really what altered my business because I looked around. As far as I know, there is and so I am the book proposal expert. My website is the book proposal expert dot com.

Debra (17:39.008)
As far as I know, there is no one in publishing who only does proposals. A lot of people, they'll do developmental edits or edits or whatever their business is. and I also do book proposals. So I sa I saw the hole. I saw the niche. I went on Substack and I saw that there was no

Was able to get book proposals.substack.com. There was no book proposal podcast, so I started the book proposal podcast. And then last fall is when I moved my book proposal services off of the D.E.B method website and got the book proposal expert.com. So that is really much that's pretty much how I got here is I it works so well with my love of writing.

my communication and project management background, but mostly I love helping people accomplish their goals. This is a great way to do it because again, writers, creators, creatives and entrepreneurs, if you're one, you're likely the other two. So that and that is my business. I do done for you, done with you, makeovers, book proposal reviews, I do a kitchen sink meeting.

to get people started and because I want want to have more of an impact, I did something that I've been fighting against for years, which is starting a group program. Because I feel like a lot of people start I feel like, okay, what can I do that's comfortable for me? So on the first Tuesday of the month at noon Pacific, I do a strategic starting point workshop that pe that

demystifies publishing and then the second half, we make sure you leave with a title and a differentiating statement. But once you sign up for one, you can come back as many times as you want. You can just come for the second half. But I want it, I've discovered a lot of people are at that starting point. They're nowhere near ready for me. But I want to be able to put them on the path so they can start working on developing their author platform or getting getting

Debra (19:56.524)
their comps in a row or whatever. Anyway, that's how I got there. And I love, I decided this wide open space that no one has dived into, which I am very fortunate because it gets to be me. but the thing that I love, I I love a lot of things about what I do. But I say I'm bilingual, I speak writer and entrepreneur. So whereas I do have clients who are writers

A lot of my clients are not are thought leaders. They're experts. They've got a story to share, a methodology to teach, something, and no one is talking to them about how publishing works. So I get to.

I that's so interesting because, you know, I work as a web designer and I specialize in author websites and I there's so many like thought leaders out there, you know, that that might have really big platforms on social media. They could have a hundred thousand, two hundred thousand, a million followers, but they don't know how to take what they do and turn it into a book, or they might have a book and they have no idea who to reach out to and like

get that going. I feel like it's sort of this niche that already has this big platform where they could sell if if somebody helps them build a foundation for it.

And these these thought leaders, they do have the platform, and because of that, they're very attractive to an agent or publisher, but they don't understand that they can get a book deal. And in the other thing that absolutely drives me cuckoo bananas is I get at least one email a week from someone selling me their hybrid publishing services. They're saying

Debra (21:49.07)
Do you want to be a published author? Well, first of all, do you not Google? Right. and then I start feeling bad for the people who aren't me who don't know the difference. They're like, great. And a lot and I know that there are plenty. There are several. I'm not gonna say plenty. I I know of a a few hybrid publishers that are legit. I'm sure there are more than the ones that I know.

Yeah.

Debra (22:16.344)
But a lot of them are just upsell factories. Like this is for this, this is for that. I've heard people say, well, if you publish a hybrid, you make more money off of your book. Well, yes, the royalty will be higher, but are you ever going to make up the money that you spent working with a hybrid publisher? And I think a lot of people just don't know the difference. also to your point about an expert with a platform.

being very attractive for a book deal. The book that I have coming out this fall, I'm co-writing with the pioneer of the active grandparenting movement. She's a friend of mine who I interviewed for an article and I said to her, Kristen, where is your book? If you don't write this, someone else will. And she said, well, how about you write the proposal with me and when we sell it, you write the book with me? To which I said, you realize I'm single and child free.

And she said, Yes. You know your lane. I know mine. It's the perfect partnership. And our agent sold the book in less than a month with a directed submission.

Wow. Yes.

Okay, I want to talk about this a little bit more because you've touched on it a couple of times. Well, there's two things that you've touched on a couple of times. But the first one is I want to talk about this idea of not having the book written, but doing a proposal because I think that especially, I mean, that's how all books used to be done, right? Like you would have a concept and you would propose it to an agent and the agent would pitch it and you would get a publishing deal and then you would get

Adanna (23:57.536)
money to write the book, right? Like that's that's how it used to be done. And in today's world, I think everyone thinks they have to have a finished manuscript of whatever they're writing, whether it's a novel or it's a memoir or it's nonfiction or it's self-help, that you have to have the whole concept done before you ever pitch it. So can we talk about this a little bit? Because even I would think like I would need this all done to be able to take it to somebody.

Right. Novels need to be finished before you pitch them. And they don't need a book proposal. They just need a really good query letter and a summary. Memoir. B it because these stories are not gonna change, right? Memoir needs to be completed, even though it also needs to be a book proposal. And in the book proposal you will have sample chapters, but in the book specs you say book is completed.

Memoirs completed and ready to submit. Anything else, nonfiction, it you do not need to write the whole book. It's a and I I mentioned before, so fifty two secrets was 101 rules, right? They decided they liked the the number 52 and they want to goal in the title. I would have had I'm not doing math today, 49 too many tips. Right?

Second book.

okay. The other secret about fifty-two secrets is they're actually sixty because there's a bonus for each chapter. Well, this is what I did as part of the pre-order marketing was bonus to tips. But then I was thinking, well, it's not fair to only to interview people and not also have them in the book. So there's a bonus to each chapter, and that's what I put together for part of the pre-sale promotion. I know I I'm going way, way, way off topic, but

Debra (25:56.778)
No, you do you can write the book, you can work on the book while it's out being shopped. I was relatively certain that 52 Secrets, as it was developed with my publisher, I was pretty sure it was gonna get a green light. So I continue to do outreach. the other thing I will say is I've written all three of my books in three months, which is the other benefit of the book proposal because if it's all

Out there, everything is outlined, you know what you're writing, then I'm gonna say easy, air quotes. You know, it's as hard as anything else that you do that you love. Easy is a relative term. but what was my point? I got the green light in May for 52 secrets, and I said, Okay, when do you need the book for it to be out in January? And my publisher said

August, but that's too that's not enough time. And I'm like, I'm a new year new you author. This is a new year new you book. When do you need it? You need it in August. I will get it done. And I did. It it ended up being it was originally the beginning of August. and then I got a couple really good interviews the end of July, so I got a couple extra weeks. But this book, finished in August, came out the following January.

So yes, it usually takes a long time. I know I'm the exception, but all three of my books have come out within a year of the green light, and that's because they were ready to write. And they were ready to write because of the book proposal.

Well, and I would think also you don't have this like gloomy cloud over you, like I'm doing all this work, what's gonna happen to it on the end, right? Like a lot of us write being like, Well, it doesn't really matter when we finish because nobody knows about it. but already having a green light and knowing that at the end of the project, like you've already met the goal of that, that's gotta help be an encouragement to finish it.

Debra (28:07.162)
well deadlines work for everything. the other thing is while a book is out for submission, there are things you can do. And yes, if you if you're confident, you can start working on the book, or you can start jotting notes or make your outline even more detailed or make a to-do list of the things that you're going to do. You can also use it to build your author platform, get more media, update your website, do more videos, things that are going to make you even more attractive.

to an agent and publisher. So waiting time, which for a lot of they say two to three months. Waiting for replies is a good time frame. I mean, it's not a good time frame. It's a good guesstimate of when someone will get back to you. And it's nerve wracking because you love your book and you want to get started. But there are things that you can do in tandem so you're not just waiting.

the other part of that fun process, right?

Yeah, th the yeah, the submission and then six months later you get you know, you get feedback.

Mm-hmm. Well, in like I said with my agent, he sent out your goal guide over the summer, and then he sent it again in October. And that was when the interest came in. And I changed I changed one line between the first time it was submitted and the second, which was the where other goal setting books tell you how to achieve your goals. Only the D.E.B. method shows you how to set the foundation for your goals. And

Debra (29:45.91)
For literal years I thought that's what made the difference. And I was on a panel with my publisher last fall and I found out no, it wasn't that. I just liked you. I liked that you had the the background in publishing, that you were very community oriented and I saw that potential. And you knew your stuff and I'm like, I've been telling I've been saying this in webinars, you know, that differentiating statement made the difference. I'm sure it didn't hurt. But

Also remember, and this is the other thing that's so important about the proposal, is you're not selling the book. You're selling yourself. They are investing in you. They do not want a one-trick pony or one book author. They want a long-term relationship. And that means they have to get to know you through your proposal and they have to like you. I mean, that's the other thing. I met a different agent a couple months before I met the I met Paul.

who's my who's been my agent for eight years. And I'm like, great, I met this agent. And it wasn't like the click, click, click thing. And I'm like, okay, fine. And then, like I said, a few months later I met the person who was my agent, who was very enthusiastic about what I had to offer and couldn't wait to get my proposal out there. So that's the other thing. Sometimes a no just means it's not a fit.

I think that's good advice. Okay. So the other thing you've mentioned a few time is the author platform. And I mean, we talk about it all the time, but I just want to know like what you what you think about the author platform. Like what does that mean to you and what are the pieces that they need to have, like, you know, when they're when they're trying to like shop out their work, right? Like what that what does that author platform mean in your world?

In my world, in most worlds, your author platform is everywhere you show off online and offline. So you want your website or websites, you want your newsletter, online community. the other thing that I don't think I mentioned is that everything in your book proposal, unless it's the sample chapters, needs to be in the third person. Because when you get the yes,

Debra (32:07.17)
they're gonna pluck different parts out of your proposal. They're gonna use your overview as the basis for the back of the book content. They're gonna take your bio out of out of your proposal. They're gonna take your marketing plan and put it into a document and then add their ideas and then you've got the marketing plan. So all of this is in your third person, but the other thing and especially important in the platform section is to include any links.

To the things that you're talking about. in the text. You want to live link the text, not put the actual website address, but you want your website. Everybody, and this was true in the olden days, is you needed an email list, newsletter list in the tens of thousands. Now we also have things like Instagram and Facebook and YouTube and all of the things, Substack.

I what I say is list out your social media platforms and the information that you share. If you have big numbers, the same thing regarding your website andor your newsletter list. If they're big numbers, mention them. If they're not big numbers, just be just mention them, right? show that you are owning your category, your expertise, and these are the ways in which you showcase it. In addition to that, for your platform,

you want to include where you've been interviewed so this is video audio slash podcast articles that you have been interviewed articles you've written places where you've been interviewed all of the things in a list with live links obviously bigger names are better but quality is also important you know it's I have a client who does a

A monthly segment on a morning show, which is great. That alone is going to make a publisher and an agent's eyes widen and say, good, this person can promote or her book once a month when she is she is on this morning show. So you but if you don't have that, what do you have? So you want links and articles, and these are things that, like I said, you can develop, add more to.

Debra (34:35.746)
While your book is out for submission, maybe there it goes out once, you do an update if you've got more media and that before it goes out a second time is another possibility. And then your speaking appearances. So it's not just in some of it's online, but this isn't just online. Your author platform is all of the places you are. I have an I have a memoir client whose book's currently being shopped, and she's still working on her online presence.

But she is a board member of five organizations and they are all the ideal reader for her book. So that also counts. And then toward the like at the bottom of your platform section, there's a space to put context. So you can talk about any organizations you're involved with, any influencers you know in the space that will share the book, showing that.

that you do have that you can get your book out to more people than just the ones you know personally.

So this I think like Kathleen and I talk about this so much that if your manuscript is finished and you start here, like you're so far behind for your book. I mean, all of this stuff takes years to curate. I mean, you can't just like be like, you know, I'm gonna write a book and shop it out. And I have no Instagram, I've never spoken anywhere, I've never been on a podcast. I mean, I mean, right? I like I feel like

You need to really cause all of that stuff shows a publisher that you're serious, that this is real work, that it's not a hobby, that you're like, you know, dead pan on, you know, I am I'm writing this. Like I know what I'm talking about.

Debra (36:27.168)
Yes, absolutely. And I say this in workshops or when I start working with a client, I'm like, you are the king, queen, goddess, diva, whatever of your topic. That is really step one. Now you have to own it. And through your author platform, through all the places you show up is you saying, I know more about this than other people. You know, I may I may have been known

as the book proposal expert for the last two years, but I've been doing this work as part of my goal coaching for more than ten years. Working with at fifteen. Okay, yes, I get older every time I every time I make a statement. The the point the point being whatever it is you're doing that you love so much you want to write a book about it.

You need to be in the mind frame of, okay, great, I get to shout from the rooftops because people need this information. So through your blog, through your website, through your newsletter, you are sharing not just your information, but information that you as the subject matter expert knows to tell other people. the other thing is newsletters, although they're not as important, they're still important because a publisher wants to know.

That you have direct access to your ideal reader. and if you do not want a traditional email newsletter, there are two workarounds. You can do one on LinkedIn because when you start a LinkedIn newsletter, the first thing it does is it invites everybody you're connected with to subscribe. And whenever you make a new connection, before if someone sends you a connection request, even before

you say yes, they are going to invite you to subscribe to your newsletter. Substack I like even more because you have the email addresses and that is gaining in popularity. It's sort of like a website and social media community all in one. You can do articles, you could do videos, you can interact through notes, which is more of a social media interaction thing, and people can discover you through the platform.

Adanna (38:48.719)
I don't think about Substack like that. I tell other people to do Substack, but I never think about Substack. I don't know why.

started I got mine ready. I just have to start putting up the story. But I'm doing something that has nothing to do with the book I'm writing. It's the book everybody's been wanting me to write for 40 years. And I'm just

So what is your substack, Kathleen?

Glimpses of a life. And I haven't, I have to put something up. I have to come up with a look for it. But it's all this over 40 years I've been writing about the 16 years I was in rock and roll. And so, and I got really inside a lot of stuff, worked for record labels, worked for management firms, worked for the Japanese for four years. But I have adventures all over the world, and their dinner time stories is the way I looked at them.

You know, but I had started writing them. So I've collected forty years of you know, t three or four or five or six chapters, and I'm just gonna put them all up on Substack. fun. Yeah, I think it'd be a great way to do it. And then read my Substack. You guys always like these stories and you're telling me I should write a book. Well, I've done Substack now, you know, because I am working on a book that means something to me. That was just what I lived through.

Debra (40:10.606)
But you also make an excellent point, inadvertently make an excellent point about Substack is that's a place where you can share things that are off the beaten path of your expertise. I do I do a podcast called Gold Chat. So every Monday I bring in two or three guests to dive into the topic of the week. And believe it or not, the one that I recorded this week was on Substack. And one of the

One of the people on my show is a LinkedIn expert, so he uses them in tandem, but he does things about his personal health journey. That goes on Substack.

Mm-hmm.

Almost everything else can go on both. So to figure out and and I love LinkedIn as well. I believe every author needs a website or a hub and there is a way where you can make if you're not interested in doing a website, you can put your URL to redirect to your Substack. That's a website workaround. LinkedIn, because I know when I meet people I look them up.

People look you up as well. So it's good to have, even if it's just your background photo, a profile photo that looks like you, a how I help statement as part of your headline, along with something that's that's fun, like I put former non-cook and food podcaster online, but just something that that develops rapport that's a conversation starter. So

Debra (41:46.592)
And then pick wonder and probably YouTube, you want some sort of video related social media, get your name on all of them. So I am at the D.E.B method everywhere on

I've been on LinkedIn for God, a long, long time. But that was most of my beginning in LinkedIn were all the people when I spent the 20 years working in tech. And now we've added in people from publishing. So the other life was, you know, I've had like three stages.

But LinkedIn is I like to think of it as a Rolodex because let's say let's say I'm doing a show on a topic and I need one more person, I just put that keyword in and I see who pops up. And the other the other thing that I love about my show is it's great for getting to know new friends or if I have a friend I haven't spoken to in a while, I can reach out and we can catch up live on the show. So it it's just a fun way

to it it's my favorite form of networking. It's a way for me to bring people together who I believe need to meet each other unless it's on purpose they don't know each other. and again, a good way to start a relationship or continue or get back in touch.

All right, you convinced me. I'll work on my LinkedIn. It was the first thing she asked me before we started recording was I tried to find you on LinkedIn. Do you have one? And I was like, I do have one, but I don't even know how to log into it. So all right, all right. I do think that we should shift a little because Debra's gonna be hosting the June webinar for WPN.

Adanna (43:27.72)
and before we run out of time, I want her to just kind of talk about that a little bit and you know, what what she's gonna be doing and what people have can look forward to.

Well, and I'm so excited. I mean I I and before I answer this question, it's when you love what you do, it shows. When you don't love what you do, it really shows. I love what I do, Kathleen does, Adanna does, you who is tuning in, what is the thing that you love that you want to dive into? That is what you should be exploring a hooks differentiators for your book.

That being said, I am doing how to write a winning book proposal without the stress for the June webinar. And we will go through in a little bit more detail domestifying publishing, but also through the different sections of the book proposal and what you need to do to get started or to keep going in creating a book proposal that gets the attention of agents and publishers.

I think Yeah, me too. I think it's gonna be a really valuable session for everyone who attends. And if you're listening to this after it's been live, it's always still available on WPN's website. So you know, you can come at it afterwards too. But the live ones are so great because you can any questions that arise, you have an opportunity to like, you know, work it out in the moment.

That is so important for people.

kathleen (45:07.574)
And WPN stands for Writers and Publishers Network, who is one of the sponsors of this podcast.

Yes.

Well, I'm excited because I love helping people achieve their author goals. And if you want again, if you've been thinking about writing a book for a while, you don't need to write the whole book unless it's a memoir. and there is another category called memoir plus, which is it's memoir, but you're also adding advice within your chapters. And that that

You do not that falls in the category of nonfiction book and it's also in a lot of cases more saleable than a memoir because it's an action oriented memoir.

That is that a new category? I've not heard of that one.

Debra (45:57.716)
I've well my so my publisher, Brenda Knight, she launched books that save lives. So she is I think one of the early advocates of this format because she received memoirs and said this is great, but if you add advice to it, it makes it more saleable. So I always like the the one example she gives is Nita Sweeney's book, Depression Hates a Moving Target.

Which was submitted to her as a memoir that she said, This is great. Why don't we add I I am I'm paraphrasing, I hope I'm telling the story right. But Nita added advice. This is someone who was trying to manage her mental health issues and nothing was working. And she literally started running for one minute a day.

One minute a day. And yes. And and now and she worked it up to marathons, but talking about the benefits of running for mental health. So it it was pitched as a memoir, but it was published as a memoir plus. So not just the story, but the actionable advice coming to a story. some memoirs.

Would increase over time.

Adanna (47:05.095)
Or

Debra (47:21.44)
need to be memoirs. A lot of memoirs have lessons in them and by calling it out, it becomes a nonfiction book. And even that one, like I said, you don't have to write the whole thing. So if you've been and maybe, maybe you've got a draft of a manuscript that's been sitting in a drawer for years that you have no idea what to do with, read it, put it away, and then start working on the proposal for it. And then see what happens.

So there there are all these th these all these if you if you're listening to this, you're thinking about writing a book. And if you're thinking about writing a book

There's nothing should stop you. I know you're not supposed to the word should. Why are you letting anything stop you? You can write a book proposal, start submitting, see what happens, because you don't know who needs to read your book. You don't know whose hands is going to go into and it's going to change their life. So as an author, what you can do is everything in your power to get it out in the world. And that starts with a book proposal.

That is such fabulous advice, really. I I really, really like that because there are a lot of people I think that have been sitting back and holding off on things and just get it out, you know. I love this memoir plus idea.

Yeah, me too. I have a client that falls exactly into that category.

kathleen (48:56.738)
You need to talk with her about that.

I know. I mean she's already sold it. So the hybrid. I I wish she had held out a little bit more. But but I you know, her book is that like for the future, I think she can use that as her, you know, one of her sales categories. So this has been great. This has been such a fun episode. you have such good energy. So thanks for joining us. I think it's been

Well that's

Adanna (49:27.008)
educational and entertaining and you know I think people will get a lot out of the the webinar in June from from Debra. So thank you.

Well, thank you for having me. And I wanna invite anybody who's listening, find me on LinkedIn, connect with me. On LinkedIn, I'm actually Coast Bunny because when I started freelance writing, I thought having my name as the website was too boring. And so I went with the my original portfolio site was Coast Bunny.com as in LA Transplant. I thought it was amusing.

so find me on LinkedIn. You can also learn more at the book proposalexpert dot com. Email me Deb at the bookproposal expert dot com. And if there's anything, you know, send me your questions. See what my goal is to help people get their books out in the world. So please reach out and stay in touch.

That's a fabulous goal. It's one of mine. I think helping people get out there is really fabulous. And the smile on their face when they hold the first printed book is amazing.

my goodness. Okay, so this is my third traditionally published book that's coming out, but it is my co-author's first traditionally published book and it's so much fun working with her. We've we've been going through the proof and just there's not there literally is nothing like seeing your book come to life.

kathleen (50:57.302)
it's a wonderful experience. And we hope everybody listening, that's one of their goals is to hold that printed book in their hand. So thank you, Debra. I really appreciate it. This has been a great session and you've really given us a lot to think about. And welcome everyone to go to the writersand publishers network.com if they want to sign up for your webinar. Or if it comes out after the webinar, you can go there and purchase it to download. So

It'll really, really help them.

Thank you so much for having me. This has been fun.

Thank you.