On the Four Phases of Book Editing for Indie & Traditional Authors

In this episode of Talking Book Publishing, hosts Kathleen and Adanna sit down with Naomi Kim Eagleson, writer, editor, and founder of The Artful Editor, for a deep dive into the full editing journey—whether you’re self-publishing or going the traditional route. Naomi takes us through her four-phase editing model and explains why many manuscripts spend too long in “line-edit purgatory” when what they really need is a developmental overhaul.

We talk manuscript critiques vs. developmental edits vs. line-editing vs. proofreading — Naomi breaks each one down, explains when they belong in your publishing timeline, and shows why waiting too long (or paying too early) can hurt your book. She also shares veteran insights on what agents look for in your first 5–10 pages, why voice matters more than perfect punctuation at query time, and how simple tactics like reading your work aloud or letting Word speak it back can reveal structural problems you’ll miss by eye alone.

Whether you're polishing your first draft or prepping your launch, this episode delivers practical, actionable advice to elevate your manuscript and position your book for success.

Resources:
• Website ArtfulEditor.com
• Instagram: @artfuleditor
• Facebook: @artfuleditor

About our guest:
Naomi Kim Eagleson is a Los Angeles-based writer and editor who founded The Artful Editor, an editorial agency dedicated to helping writers of all stripes elevate their manuscripts for publication. Originally from Hawai‘i, Naomi began her career at Manoa, an award-winning literary journal, where she honed her editorial expertise. After earning her MFA from the Iowa Writers’ Workshop, she moved to California in 2010 and launched her own agency offering full-service editing—developmental edits, copyedits, and query reviews. With more than a decade of experience guiding authors toward their publishing goals, Naomi brings deep respect for craft, clear process, and a compassionate edit-mindset to every project.

Related Episodes:
• Season 5 | Episode 8 • Kim Dower

• Season 5 | Episode 7 • Penny Sansevieri

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We’d like to hear from you. If you have topics or speakers you’d like us to interview, please email us at podcast@talkingbookpublishing.today and join the conversation in the comments on our Instagram @writerspubsnet.

Transcript

00:00:02 SPEAKER_00
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Talking Book Publishing. I'm Kathleen Kaiser, your co -host, along with Adanna Moriarty. And our guest today is Naomi Eagleson, who has The Artful Editor. It's an editing service for books and different types of things. She'll tell you a little bit about it, but what I really wanted her to go into is more on... why certain parts of the editing process. A lot of people aren't even aware that they exist that are writing books. So welcome, Naomi. Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

00:00:39 SPEAKER_00
Just a full disclosure, I've worked with Naomi with six or seven clients. So I'm very much aware of what she and her editors do and what they produce. And the people I've worked with have been very pleased with it. Just out there, just wanted you all to know. But anyway, well, Naomi, tell us about all of the different types of book editing. Sure. So,

00:01:06 SPEAKER_02
yeah. So, you know, most people, when they've written a manuscript, typically what they are seeking is someone to actually read it from beginning to end and to tell them if the story is working or they're... If it's a memoir or a self -help book or some kind of nonfiction book, they want to know, is this keeping your interest? Am I getting my ideas across? Are the characters compelling? Are you moved, excited, thrilled, scared, you know, entertained by what I wrote? And that's where having a reader is really important. And that reader can be, you know, you can have different type of readers. You can have... friends, fellow writers, teachers, and then you have someone called the professional editor. And these are people, it's their job to read your work and to give you that professional feedback. And this is something that they do day in and day out, and they know the market pretty well. So usually that round, that first edit would be called a, what I call it, some kind of big picture edit. And that could look... in one of two ways. One is a manuscript critique, and that's something that my company offers. And that's where the editor, you know, who knows your genre, will read your manuscript and give you an honest professional feedback in the form usually of an editorial report. And this is where they cover everything from the opening pages to how you organize the book. your character development, setting, tone, voice, and so on. But they don't mark up your manuscript. So that type of critique, that type of service is great if your manuscript is pretty in the early stages or you don't really have the funds for a more intensive edit. So that could be great. And then the next step would be developmental editing. where the editor actually marks up your manuscript. And then you can get that more in -depth feedback that's very pointed and on the page.

00:03:19 SPEAKER_00
And so the developmental is like what they've written in the review or write -up about it. It actually goes in and says where this is wrong or where the voice is wrong or where this scene isn't working and stuff like that, line by line.

00:03:34 SPEAKER_02
Correct. So there may be a part where the editor is lost and confused and isn't, you know, it isn't quite clear what the author is getting at in a particular scene. They may have a suggestion of like, you know, you may want to expand on this particular scene or add some details here, or maybe even the whole first 50 pages should be removed or rethought. Which is often the case. It's called the 10 % rule. A lot of writers make the mistake of including the first 10%. I mean,

00:04:10 SPEAKER_02
the first 10%. I mean, usually the first 10 % is more like they're still figuring out what their story is about or what their book is about. And they kind of read more like notes rather than like a solid narrative or something that... really serves the book so you know these are things that an editor can catch and advise on how did you get into editing like what what was that journey like because I mean was it like I love books and then you started reading books and you were like oh my god wrong with this book oh my god sure definitely experienced that since you know maybe not maybe not as a child

00:04:35 SPEAKER_01
did you get into editing like what what was that journey like because I mean was it like I love books and then you started reading books and you were like oh my god wrong with this book

00:04:48 SPEAKER_02
my god sure definitely experienced that since you know maybe not maybe not as a child I don't think I had quite the confidence and the skill level yet. But no, I really got into editing when I was in college. I was a sophomore, junior, and I was looking for a job while I was on campus. And my professor was the chief editor of a literary journal. And I asked him, hey, do you ever hire editors? And he said, yeah, actually, we are looking for an assistant. you know, applied and I got the position and I was there for about three years and learned a lot about editing that I had, did not know, I was not really aware of, aside from my professors marking up all my errors, you know. So, and just really admiring what they were doing. Like they, you know, we were working with writers from all over the world. Some of them were very well -known writers who've won Pulitzer Prizes. So these are already very advanced writers in their career. And I would see, how the editor would edit their work and like just the detailed scrutiny of the sentences. And, you know, I was on the lower, I was on the bottom of the totem pole at the time in terms of like, you know, editing. So when it came around to me, I was really just, you know, I got to see what all the other more advanced editors were doing. And I was just like trying to catch what they missed. And we would go through this for several rounds. And, you know, and in the end, you would have this beautifully written essay or story that we've then published in a gorgeous journal. And some of these pieces won awards, you know, Best American Short Stories or essays. And it was a really satisfying experience.

00:06:42 SPEAKER_00
So you've been editing your whole career.

00:06:46 SPEAKER_02
Yes, I, you know, I did basically, yes. A while, after I went to, after I was editing at Manoa, then I went to graduate school and I studied creative writing at the Iowa Writers Workshop. And I didn't do any editing there, but I did workshop with other writers. So we were exchanging work and giving comments and feedback, basically developmental editing and line editing. That's what we were, as a collective, we're doing with a teacher as our guide. And around that time, when I came back to Hawaii, where I was living, I actually taught English for about four years, including college, college age and younger high school.

00:07:31 SPEAKER_01
So, I mean, in your company, you do mostly focus on like developmental, like big picture stuff, or do you do all of that? I mean, like if somebody brought you a manuscript, do you do all stages of it?

00:07:46 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, so I, when I was a freelancer and I do occasionally still edit people's manuscripts, I would offer everything, you know, whatever the author needed, I would provide. If they needed just a read through of their draft, see if there's what the weaknesses and the strengths are, I would provide that. If it needed line editing, I would provide it and copy editing. I have now a team and I've had a team for almost a little over 10 years now. And some of these editors only just developmental edit. That is all they do. They love structure and organization. They do not enjoy editing, you know, punctually. And then I have editors where copy editing is what they love. And they're very good at it. They're up to date on the style guides. A lot of these editors also work for publishers. So they, you know, just are very professional in their approach. and really do a great job with my author's manuscripts. So I match with the right editor, and I oversee the whole project from beginning to end.

00:08:57 SPEAKER_00
I've recently been helping a friend submit his book using Query Tracker, and it's amazing how many agents only want the first five or ten pages. Yes, that is true. The first five or ten pages, you know, next. And I think a lot of people don't understand the importance of just, it's not like the olden days of the 80s and 90s when you had these beautiful, colorful openings and it goes on and you're setting the scene and the mood and everything. It's like, bam, you're in the story now. And it makes such a difference. How do you find, do you find many of the manuscripts you receive, what kind of condition are they in?

00:09:42 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that's a great question. A whole range. You know, I have people who are, you know, really already established authors who've written books and have an agent, but they either just have a manuscript they're not ready to send to their agent yet because they want maybe their agent isn't someone who edits as well.

00:09:58 SPEAKER_02
have a manuscript they're not ready to send to their agent yet because they want maybe their agent isn't someone who edits as well. They just want to get it in the best shape possible. So they might come to us. Sometimes agents send their authors to us. to help with their author's manuscripts because they're just too busy. Agents are, you know, sometimes they just don't have the time to give their author's manuscript that kind of editorial attention. So that's where we can come in and help. And then, you know, we have writers who like got MFAs, you know, they really are maybe a little bit more advanced with their skills. So we can, you know, their manuscript may not need as heavy as an edit. as, say, a newcomer would be. And then, you know, like I said, we get people who they've never taken writing classes, but they've been writing for years. Some of them have been working on novels for like 10, 15 years, and they come to us and they've never worked with an editor before. But they are sick and tired of looking at their book, you know? They're like, I am done. I'm ready. I'm ready to hand this off to someone else. And so we come in and we are that person. to, you know, tell them, hey, you know, this is where it still needs a little work. This is where you're doing a really great job. This is what we recommend for the next steps and just kind of guiding them along their path towards publication.

00:11:25 SPEAKER_01
So when you're talking to authors or us, you know, about like books and when people bring you their manuscripts, I mean, what do you think is the most important thing for them to know about like? you know, well, A, the need for editing, working with an editor, or just the most common kind of pitfalls that you see that, you know, authors bring when they bring you a manuscript?

00:11:51 SPEAKER_02
I think there's really, one would be, are you even ready? Is your book ready for an editor? Because editing isn't cheap, you know, it's, it is a costly, I wouldn't say it's incredibly expensive, but it is an investment. And it's an investment of thousands of dollars in some cases, depending on the length of your book. So I think, you know, I don't usually encourage writers to hire an editor if they haven't written enough versions, if they haven't revised enough. It's really best that the writer, you know, take the book through several rounds first before you pay a professional to take a look at it. That'll save. the writer, and, you know, time and money. And the editor can really, you know, the time is valuable. So if your manuscript is at a more advanced stage, the editor can really focus on the fine -tuning of your story or your whatever, you know, if it's a general nonfiction book. And then you really make, like, your money is being well -spent at that point.

00:13:04 SPEAKER_00
Do you encourage people to maybe have friends read it? Most friends are afraid of being critical of their friends. I know that. But you do have some friends that can go through something and point stuff up. I think that's a really good, after you've, you know, rewritten it two or three times, just to get some feedback. Do you think that's that?

00:13:27 SPEAKER_02
that? Absolutely. I think that's really, I even... Ideally, that is the way to go. You've written a few drafts and then you're ready to share with someone. Even before you hire an editor, you know, find beta readers. And those beta readers can be friends and family, although that's not my first choice, unless they're also writers and editors or can be honest with you about your work. Ideally, you want to find other writers, you know, who are interested in the kind of writing or genre that you're working in. If you can find a writing workshop with a professor or a writing teacher, that's actually even better. Although that would mean, you know, usually paying some kind of fee to be a part of that class.

00:14:12 SPEAKER_01
I mean, sometimes you have to pay, I think. I feel like, you know, we often talk about the need for an editor because we run into people all the time who are like, I don't need an editor. I've, you know, this is my 10th draft. I've read it. I mean, like they don't even think they need, you know, copy and line editing. What what do you think about what do you think about like that mindset? I mean, like we know everyone needs an editor, like everybody needs an editor. But like, do you do you come across people that are like stubborn like that? And you're you know, you're just kind of trying to get them to be like, no, look, you really need an editor.

00:14:53 SPEAKER_02
Yes, I do. Not too often because I feel that more and more people get becoming educated. on the internet and with podcasts like yours and they're learning about this there's you know the value of editing so I feel like compared to 10 years ago writers are way more educated and open -minded now so it makes my job easier in terms of convincing them you know that editing is a good thing and this is why you need it but I ultimately It's really sometimes it's a matter of ego. Some writers are just so attached to their work or they're very precious about their work. And there's only so much convincing that I or an editor can do. And sometimes, unfortunately, writers end up learning the hard way. They don't listen. They put their book out there and then they get, you know, bad reviews or no one buys their book. And that's the tragedy of not, you know, taking, you know, not producing the best book they can out there with the help of editors.

00:15:58 SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, this is an industry. This is a business. And there's different parts of it because you're so attached to your book. A, you don't want to kill your darlings, even though they have nothing to do. But you thought that was a really clever line. It didn't mean anything by the time the fifth or sixth draft happened, but you won't get rid of it. I found that they say, well, I have a friend who's a school teacher. I said, and so they use the... you know, Chicago man aisle and they go, well, what does that mean? It's like, hello, this industry has a style guide. English that you were taught in school, in elementary school, has nothing to do with the publishing world. I mean, there's basics, but each industry has its own. And most people don't even know that.

00:16:44 SPEAKER_02
Right. Yes. You know, it is. I mean, there are. College degrees in copy editing, for example, you know, they're very intensive and demanding. I've taken some of these courses and I still felt like I had just scratched the surface, you know, of learning. This is early on in my career. And also language is constantly changing. The rules are constantly changing. The style guides are every year being updated. And it's too much for just an individual author to keep up with and try to DIY it. You really... Ideally, if you want to, you know, produce a professional book, you know, you really do need to hire people who are on top of it. And they know how to approach your work like a publisher would. Because especially if you're self -publishing, you are actually now a publisher. And a publisher has to have a team and a team of editors to help. Do whatever level of editing that your work, your product needs before you put it out to market. Because once it's on the market, you can't control people's responses. You know, all you can do is try to produce your best and then hope for the best. But if you put out something that's not where you didn't really put the investment in and gotten help, it's going to show. And then readers are going to be angry that they spent money on your book because they're going to open it up and they're going to see, oh, this beginning is just, you know, wasn't clearly written or it was boring or I see all these typos and this person should got an editor. And then you lose, it tarnishes your reputation as a writer.

00:18:35 SPEAKER_01
And other self -published authors, too. I mean, that's why it's so hard for self -published authors to gain traction, because people just assume that all self -published authors are like that, right? Like, that they have cut corners or, you know, they're impatient or whatever. And, I mean, that's definitely not true. Like, I mean, I've seen beautiful self -published books. So, I mean, I think that,

00:19:02 SPEAKER_01
I don't know. People need to remember that like when they actually get to that stage of publishing a book, like it's no longer like really for fun. It becomes like a business, you know? Yes, it is a business. And that means,

00:19:19 SPEAKER_02
means, you know, investing in it. If you can't afford editing, then you're probably not ready to publish. And you may just need to create a business plan and save up the money over time. And then when you've saved enough, then you can really approach it the right way. and produce something that you feel really proud about.

00:19:38 SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I tell people, especially because, you know, I do marketing, that you have to,

00:19:44 SPEAKER_00
have to, when you first start writing the book, maybe put $25 a month aside, depending on how long it's going to take you so that you can do the editing, do the publishing, get the book laid out professionally, you know, put a book in Microsoft Word, for God's sake. You know, it's... You know, it's really hard to make people and this isn't this thing's hard. It's a very hard business. It's an art form. Writing is an art form. But it's not like you have to just throw it up. Even if you're a painter, you still have to get a gallery to approve your work. It has to be framed properly. You have you're not doing all that yourself. There's nobody is like a solo person in any of this. Right. Right.

00:20:30 SPEAKER_02
And, you know, I do sympathize with writers who, you know, have a limited budget, but they want to get their work out there. And my heart really does call for them. And I'm like, I really, you know, want to help them. And there are, if you do a little digging on the internet, people do, there are ways to cut on costs, not at the editing so much, but maybe on the book design. You know, you can use certain programs and, you know, where it costs very little. You can do like some kind of exchange. with other people, with your work, and you can save money that way. So I just think there are ways to save on the cost without compromising on the quality. But it does take a little digging to find out how you could do that.

00:21:17 SPEAKER_00
Absolutely. That was another thing when, as I said, I was helping a friend upload it, you know, go to these agents. Many of them, some of them, the question is, has this been professionally edited? They just ask it right up front. You know, yeah, no, maybe, or I did it myself. It's like, yes or no, no fill -in. So they want to know what you're, you know, it's sort of like your commitment to it. It used to be, this is not the days of even the 70s, 80s, and 90s when they had editors that really edited at publishing houses. There's so few of them anymore. They've all become book marketers.

00:21:55 SPEAKER_02
Yes, I've heard that. Exactly. Having said that, though, if as a writer, like say you only have a few, you have a very limited budget, but you're looking to get an agent and you've written a novel, let's say, I would recommend instead of having someone copy edit your book that you hire a developmental editor. Because an agent's not going to look at your book and say, oh, wow, I love this book because it has zero anchors in it. That is not what they're looking for. If your story is amazing, it's gripping, it's beautiful, you know, it's engaging, beautifully written, but there's some errors here and there, they'll forgive you those errors. What they're going to care about more is the quality of your story. Or, yeah, if we're talking about fiction.

00:22:48 SPEAKER_00
Not fiction is a little different, but yeah. Yeah, it's all about the story. If you grab them and pull them over.

00:23:00 SPEAKER_00
And there's a few little, you know, they'll keep going.

00:23:05 SPEAKER_02
And like, it also depends on genre, though. If it's literary fiction, it may not be so much story as more your style and your voice and how you use language. Some editors, I mean, agents are more favor that type of writing. Because, you know, I mean, look at the latest, one of the recent Orbital by, Samantha Harvey, which got the Booker Prize. There is no plot. It's just a bunch of astronauts in space. But it's beautifully written. You know, it's got a wonderful style. And so even that kind of book can do well. It doesn't necessarily always have to be some, like, gripping plot. But, like I said, it still needs to be, you know, a compelling story and compelling writing. And even if there's some errors, that can be forgiven.

00:23:55 SPEAKER_01
I don't understand how you write a book with no plot, but, oh.

00:24:01 SPEAKER_01
I mean, what pulls your story along? Okay, so Naomi is going to be doing the November WPN webinar. So do we want to chat about that a little bit?

00:24:17 SPEAKER_02
Yes, why don't you tell us what you had planned? Sure, so the webinar is happening on November 17. at 6 p .m. and it's called The Four Phases of Book Editing and I'll be talking about just going really into more depth on that big picture edit and what your options are as a writer and when should you get that type of edit and then the next level which be line editing and then there's copy editing and what are the differences between the two. Sometimes there's overlaps and that can be very confusing so I'll clear up some of that. during the webinar, and also talk about some of the examples of what that would look like. And then following that up with proofreading, which is really only if you're self -publishing. I don't recommend proofreading for those who are looking for a traditional publisher and why that's important. And then also talking about what are the budget -friendly options, too. And some of that we should be touched upon in this. but I'll go into more depth.

00:25:33 SPEAKER_02
I mean, I can certainly talk about that. I mean, there's a lot for sure. And even like commas, you know, if you look at earlier novels, for example, they were a profusion of commas. And the trend now is fewer commas. Yes. So it could just be a matter of style. Some are comma -loving writers and others, you know, would prefer to do it without them. I like commas. I use a lot of commas. I find commas to also be very confusing because it's one of those punctuation marks that are kind of depends on the writer. And because a comma is really a pause. You're just saying you need a pause here, you know? And it's also used so that you don't have these two words confuse each other or get conflated together. So you're making a division saying, I'm talking about this particular unit in this part of the sentence. The comma is marking that. And then what follows is like a shift. So knowing how to do that is a little tricky, but yeah. So that's one of the things, one of the punctuation marks that's evolving. I think semicolons, there's this kind of a... backlash against it, and it's starting to disappear from books. So that's interesting to observe as well. Why?

00:27:02 SPEAKER_02
I think because most people don't know how to use it. So they'd rather not use it. It's also like a hard stop. It's not as hard as a period, but it's almost as hard. And that could maybe be a little disruptive to the reading experience. It can, yeah. I'm guessing. I haven't read anyone. I haven't read like the detailed explanation. I just noticed that that's a trend as well. I like semicolons too. And I like em dashes. Although now everyone's saying, oh, chat GPT uses em dashes. But I'm like, I don't think so. I mean, everyone uses em dashes. That's not a chat GPT, a quirk of chat GPT. That's something that.

00:27:45 SPEAKER_01
It's a little bit of a quirk of chat GPT, but. But that doesn't mean like if you like an em dash, don't use it because I also like an em dash. But chat GPT will use a lot of em dashes. Like it's sometimes you're like, whoa, use a comma, bro. Right. But I really I like an em dash.

00:28:06 SPEAKER_01
really I like an em dash. I like a comma. I'm not a big fan of the period. I also write poetry. So when I'm writing for like in prose, I'm like, why would I want to end this?

00:28:18 SPEAKER_02
And, like, speaking of punctuation and rules, like, you know, as an editor, rules are important because we are trying to get, and we use style guides, and a style guide is like a 600 -page rulebook, you know, in tiny font, going over every single, you know, nuance or aspect of a sentence. But having said that and just thinking of poetry and writing, I mean. I think it's okay for writers to take risks on the page, to be somewhat creative in their punctuation and creative in their sentences. I think what is important is that they're consistent and they're doing it intentionally and not by accident, where it just seems like they don't know what they're doing. And like a good example of a writer would be Cormac McCarthy. You know, he, like The Road, I think he didn't even use apostrophes. You know, he really did. Because he was trying to convey this very, like, minimalistic, like,

00:29:22 SPEAKER_02
atmosphere or feeling on the page. Because the world, you know, this is like the end of the, like, this is an apocalyptic landscape. The landscape is dry and desiccated. And the language,

00:29:38 SPEAKER_02
language, he tries to use language to reflect that world.

00:29:45 SPEAKER_02
There shouldn't be any apostrophe case in that world. And it works, you know. And using fragmentary language and poetic scenes. So I think writers, you know, they don't necessarily have to follow every rulebook, but it's really about intentionality and it has to work to serve the story. Do you find...

00:30:11 SPEAKER_02
Yes. And a lot of people get confused by voice. You know, that's something I even I've learned, you know, from being in writing workshops. It's not something you can teach. You can't teach someone to be themselves. You can only be your you can only bring out that in yourself. And you do that through practice, you know, through knowing you're getting to know yourself by practicing and and and being true to yourself and on the page, but in words. And. That can only happen over time. It's really hard to know what that style is. Sometimes you can tell what your style is. I guess what could help is like who you like to read, like what kind of writing you're drawn to. And sometimes that can be reflected in your own work or it could be like a sign.

00:30:53 SPEAKER_02
that can be reflected in your own work or it could be like a sign. Oh, that's kind of like my style. You know, like if you like very spare type of sentences, maybe, you know, like Hemingway was like that. You know, there's certain writers that they, or Margaret Draws, who's like a French writer. She had very, like, fragmentary, like, cinematic language. And that was distinct to her, that no one taught her to do. It's just something that she developed on her own. And that's sometimes what agents are looking for, too. They get very excited when they see that someone has a distinctive voice and style. And sometimes they'll just... They'll make an offer just based on that because they see, oh, this is a unique voice. This is something we haven't heard before. They're using sentences in a different way. They're structuring stories in a way we haven't seen in a while.

00:31:49 SPEAKER_02
stories in a way we haven't seen in a while. But that's something hard to teach. That's really, over time, a writer can develop that.

00:32:00 SPEAKER_01
I feel like that makes sense that agents would want, like when they come across a really unique voice, just because it's a selling point, like it's fresh and it's new. Like, you know, like Bukowski was like that. Like it was just, you know, something that when you read it, you're like, whoa, this is different. Like as an editor, I mean, because you guys have this rule book, right? When you come across a writer like that, I mean, like. How do you actually deal with that? I mean, I feel like it would be sort of hard to take your rulebook and apply it to a writer who doesn't use apostrophes.

00:32:39 SPEAKER_02
Yes, I think that's where we'll have a question. You know, like, say I have a manuscript and I take a look at it or I've given it to my copy editor. Sometimes they'll email me and say, hey, I've noticed this about this writer's style. Do they want to keep it this way? Is this intentional or should I correct this? So that's something we could do. Sometimes we work with British writers who are trying to write in American English, and then we'll catch these Britishisms. So we'll check with them. Like, do you want us to change us to American style? You know, and so, you know, these are things that we have a conversation with the writer through email, usually, to just make sure that we are respecting their, you know, whatever their... plan is for the book. If they intentionally want to write in a certain style, we don't want to change it. As editors, we definitely don't want to be pampering with a writer's book and their vision for the book. We want to enhance it. We want to bring it out. We want to honor and respect their work. But if they're doing something unconsciously and it's actually hindering the flow of the story, we'll definitely call it out and make a recommendation. I had a writer send me a chapter of his book, and he said he wanted a copy edit. But his work was actually barely readable because he had all these scenes of dialogue, and he wasn't saying who was saying what. There were no dialogue texts. And it was very confusing and hard to follow. And we recommended a critique or a developmental edit and said, you know, it's really not clear who these characters are. You know, we're not getting any visuals. We can't see what they're doing and we can't follow or track the scene and the actions in the scene. And so, you know, that's where we, you know, make a recommendation and we recommend a different service. Because it's really also just too challenging to copy editor because the editor is lost. And it's not the editor's job to fix those things. It's not the copy editor's job. to put those dialogue tags in.

00:34:55 SPEAKER_01
Well, and if an editor is confused, your reader is definitely going to be confused. Like, 100%, if your editor is like, I don't get this, your reader is going to be like, what is happening? Right.

00:35:10 SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I had someone give me his manuscript, and he had a 12 -line sentence. You know, it was a full paragraph. And I said, you know, you need to break this up. I mean, I'm getting lost right here around line six or seven, and I have no idea at the end what you meant. Oh, my goodness. It flows.

00:35:31 SPEAKER_01
It flows.

00:35:32 SPEAKER_00
That's my style. I said, this isn't a style. You know, this is just a lot of stuff thrown down there. So I edited it for him. I said, let me break it up so I sort of see what you're trying to say. And he goes. Well, yeah, that makes sense. But my style is more freeform. I was like, OK, fine. You know, it's one of the things that I learned.

00:35:55 SPEAKER_01
one of the things that I learned. I did a year long like poetry. Oh, I just lost like a seminar kind of thing. Like it was like a year long process. And I used to write with no punctuation because I like that. Right. Like you would go from line to line. in my mind, like the end of the line was the punctuation. And one of the things I learned is that like punctuation, especially in poetry, but when you're reading in general, is that you're giving direction to the reader. So it's a place for them to stop and a place for them to breathe. And even when you're reading silently, like in a sentence, you still have to take a breath and you still have to breathe and you still have to pause. And learning that in my poetry, actually has helped me in my, like in my, you know, full form writing and prose because like I used to use lots of commas because my brain works in poetry and I didn't like sentences, but I think that it all comes down to the same thing. It is actual instruction for your reader. And if you look at it like that, it becomes not, this is my style. It's like, oh. I really need to tell the reader how to read this because I'm not reading it to them. They're reading it.

00:37:15 SPEAKER_00
Sometimes what's in your head when you're typing is not what people reading get.

00:37:24 SPEAKER_02
Yes, correct. I remember reading about the history of books and one of their earlier books had no sentences, like no periods. And people didn't read silently. They read aloud. The idea that you read silently didn't really, wasn't a common practice. So people would, you know, that's why Vicks were actually on lecterns. Like you would stand and read, and then you would read aloud. And then you would know where to pause because you had to breathe. You had to pause to breathe. And as writing advanced, We introduced periods and sentence breaks and paragraph breaks. And so now we, instead of standing there at a table and reading aloud, you have to do it silently in your head. So when writers seem to forget that, like you need to help the reader follow what you're writing. I usually recommend that writers read their own work aloud. You know, if you're feeling like you're losing breath and you're like, like. struggling, you may need to like think about restructuring that sentence. Maybe you need some kind of punctuation mark.

00:38:40 SPEAKER_01
I also have my computer read aloud to me, like especially when I'm working on short stories or like an essay or something like that. I will just in word has that, you know, read aloud. And I mean, it's definitely a computer, but it does let you hear it. you know, read back to you and you're like, oh, I definitely need to work on some places, you know, like it just helps you hear it in a way. Because I mean, especially with our own work, when once you start reading and rereading and rereading and rereading, you're like, it looks fine. I don't want to read this anymore. So that is a trick that I use is having my computer read to me.

00:39:20 SPEAKER_02
Yes. Right. Yeah. My husband just finished writing a draft of a novel. science fiction and he would you know he would convert his book or actually before he had to convert it like a voice to memo voice to text to voice excuse me but now with word it's so much easier and he would put on his headphones and we just go on a long walk and listen to this ai voice read his book back to him and it was really helpful in his revisions so it's much easier and technology is just making it easier for writers you know to Help them listen to their work and identify those problems just from listening.

00:40:01 SPEAKER_01
I work with an author and she does something similar when she goes on walks, but it's her talking out loud, but she puts in a headphone. So people around her just think she's on the phone.

00:40:16 SPEAKER_01
Not like she's a crazy person reading her own book to herself or whatever.

00:40:22 SPEAKER_02
You can also hire people to read your book to you if you have the funds. And some people do that. Say, here, can you read this aloud to me? You know, for an hour.

00:40:35 SPEAKER_00
I've always told people you've all got a record button on your phone. Read a page or two. See how it sounds. You know, that's if you don't want a mechanical voice, listen to yours. And like you said, Naomi, you'll hear where you need to take a breath.

00:40:51 SPEAKER_02
Yes, because you're gasping for air.

00:40:56 SPEAKER_01
Gasping, something's wrong. I mean, if you have a 12 -line sentence, you're going to be gasping. Right, right.

00:41:04 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and also sometimes you want the reader to pause and reflect on that particular image or scene or line of dialogue and just kind of let it linger in the mind of the reader a little longer. And you can do that with... line breaks, paragraph breaks, section breaks, just having white space, you know, all of those are tools for the writer to kind of guide and direct the reader's experience.

00:41:32 SPEAKER_01
So you do fiction, nonfiction, do you do like poetry? I mean, do you have editors that, like if someone brought you poetry, would they, would you be able to do that or no? Poetry is so hard.

00:41:46 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, poetry, you know, it's interesting. Poetry, we generally just don't edit poetry, mainly because I don't really have anyone on the team that does. And also, it's really hard to approach poetry.

00:41:55 SPEAKER_02
don't really have anyone on the team that does. And also, it's really hard to approach poetry. Even when I worked at the Manoa Journal, we had a lot of poetry. So when we got a short story, an article, you know, we would redline the thing. It was like crowded with edits. Poetry, oh, just one little comment here. One little comment here. Like, we just generally did not touch poetry. It's almost like getting a piece of sculpture and you don't really want to, like, change the ear, like, choreographed part of the ear. It's just something that we, as editors, just try to approach with a lot of delicacy. And,

00:42:37 SPEAKER_02
yeah. But I mean, we can definitely just check for obvious typos, you know, and sometimes we can give some feedback. And I say that in the past because we don't really do that right now. But I say as someone myself who've looked at other people's poetry, because I have a lot of friends who are poets, you know, I may say, you know, is this really the right place to end the line? You know, you may want to, do you really need an and here? Because with poetry, you want to be very economical with your language, right?

00:43:09 SPEAKER_02
And, you know, it's not prose, you know, it's poetry. So there's different rules and considerations.

00:43:18 SPEAKER_00
Well, this has been wonderful, Naomi. I think we've got covered a lot of ground, a lot of good information for people. And I think it shows how interesting editing can be.

00:43:28 SPEAKER_01
think it shows how interesting editing can be.

00:43:33 SPEAKER_00
Yes. Absolutely. So anyway. November 17th, Naomi is doing a webinar. And go to writersandpublishersnetwork .com and you can register for that or learn more about what she's covering. There's more information there. And we'd love to have you join us. But we're just happy to have Naomi here to talk. And I appreciate you coming today. Dana and I had a lot of good questions for you. Yeah, it's been fun.

00:44:03 SPEAKER_01
It's been a pleasure.

00:44:04 SPEAKER_00
a pleasure.

00:44:05 SPEAKER_01
Thank you for having me.

00:44:05 SPEAKER_02
me.

00:44:07 SPEAKER_01
Just so everyone knows, if they miss the live, there's always a replay that you can get on the Writers and Publishers Network website as well. So if you're listening to this after November 17th and you're like, darn, I really wish I had attended that, you still can. It just won't be live. Naomi, how did people get in touch with you if they wanted to connect? Do you have social media through your website?

00:44:33 SPEAKER_02
I have a website. It's www .artfuleditor .com. That's A -R -T -F -U -L -E -D -I -T -O -R .com. And then also you can find me under Artful Editor on Instagram and LinkedIn. I'm also on Facebook, but I'm just not on there as much anymore. So definitely through Instagram, LinkedIn, and my website. And on my website, you can just, you know, there's a contact form. You can reach out to me there.

00:45:00 SPEAKER_01
Great. Well, I look forward to your webinar and thanks for joining us. Thank you.