On Writing True Crime: A 13-Year Journey with LAPD’s Badge Number One

In this gripping episode of Talking Book Publishing, Kathleen and Adanna sit down with Jane Howatt, author of Jigsaw and Jane: 13 Years of Murder and Mayhem with Badge Number One. 

Jane shares the incredible story of how a single newspaper article led her into the world of homicide detective John St. John, the LAPD’s legendary investigator known as "Jigsaw John." What started as an ambitious attempt to write a book turned into a transformative journey that brought Jane face-to-face with crime scenes, victims' families, and even serial killers.

Jane discusses her evolution from a tennis-playing wife of a doctor to an embedded true crime writer, the deep bond she formed with St. John, and the chilling realities she encountered while riding along in his squad car. She also reflects on the importance of persistence in writing and the powerful role that compassion plays in understanding both the victims and the perpetrators of violent crimes. 

Whether you’re a true crime fan or an aspiring author, this conversation is a must-listen!

We’d like to hear from you. If you have topics or speakers you’d like us to interview, please email us at podcast@talkingbookpublishing.today and join the conversation in the comments on our Instagram @writerspubsnet.

Transcript

00:00:04 SPEAKER_02
Hello, I'm Kathleen Kaiser. Welcome to Talking Book Publishing. I'm here with my co -host, Adana Moriarty. And today we have Jane Howitt, an author who has an incredible book coming out on March 13th. And it's called Jigsaw and Jane, 13 Years of Murder and Mayhem with Badge Number One. And it's really... Probably one of the best cross -genre books I've read in ages. And because it's not only a memoir of this 13 -year journey she had with John St. John, who was the badge number one at LAPD, but also it's the story of her transformation and also his in a very interesting memoir.

00:00:52 SPEAKER_02
And full disclosure, I have been working, I've been aware of this book and working with Jane on and off. since 2010, and I've watched her completely change what the book was like, really watch somebody grow as a writer, and I feel what she has right now is a really dynamic product. So welcome, Jane.

00:01:11 SPEAKER_01
Thank you, Kathleen, for the nice introduction. The two of us had a long journey together, and here we are today. Yeah. Book done. Book done. Yeah.

00:01:22 SPEAKER_02
I think it's very interesting. So why don't you give people some background? You do a very good explanation because you came from being a doctor's wife, tennis playing country club mother to this woman riding around the murder scenes and eating at Denny's and all kinds of different things that were different. So give us a little background on how you met John and how this got started.

00:01:47 SPEAKER_01
Okay, actually, it got started by a newspaper article. Now, I'll go back a little bit. I've always wanted to be a writer. As a little kid, I wanted to be a writer. I was an international airline stewardess, and I'll add a little bit of a thing to it. I've always seeked adventure, whether it's in the air, whether it's wherever, but I'm always looking for some new thing to try, some new challenge. So after I hung up my wings, married Jim, I was ready to... pursue the thing I really wanted to do, and that was become an author. So I thought, well, a good place to start is in a classroom. So I took a class called How to Write a Nonfiction Book Proposal. At this particular time now, I'm married to a doctor, to Jim. He's a practicing physician in family practice. And we have two kids. And I'm like probably a lot of women my age who've done it. They've done the kids. They've, you know, they've done a little bit of what they wanted to do, but now they were ready to spread their wings and become who they wanted to be. So I had it all in my head. I want to be a writer, but I didn't know what to write about. So I thought, well, writers have to have something to write about. So I was a tennis player, avid tennis player. My girl, I played tennis at least twice, twice or three times a week with my girlfriends. So that was my life, gym, the kids and tennis. So I decided the thing to write, and this particular class that I was taking called How to Write a Nonfiction Book Proposal, the instructor said, you have to write about something you're passionate about. So I thought, passionate about tennis. So I decided I would write a book about tennis. So I started thinking, I've got to interview, I'll start off interviewing some tennis pros, like the neighbor tennis that I was taking lessons from. So I marched out of my house one fine day with a briefcase and notepads. And I had an interview with Tony Trabert, who was a well -known tennis pro. And I thought, I'm all set to go. I'm going to become the next sports writer. So I interviewed him and that went well. And I thought I was real excited about this. And the kids thought, mom's going to write a tennis book. And my girlfriends were saying, I can't wait for you to interview Chris Everett. And I thought, not yet. And so I was, in the book proposal, the nonfiction book proposal, he said this. There's, what I want you to do, since some of you don't know what you want to do, is I want you to clip newspaper articles out of the newspaper articles. Because newspapers are full of good stories. So I... Got a pair of scissors, and every morning I sat and read through the newspaper, and I clipped stories that might not have to do with tennis as a backup. And I cut them out and put them in a folder, cut them out, put them in a folder. And one fine day, as I was going through all of the newspaper clippings,

00:04:47 SPEAKER_01
clippings, there was an article about a homicide cop. Detective John St. John, badge number one of the LAPD, had just solved. a serial murder, the freeway killer case. And I looked at that and I picked it up and pulled it closer. Now, I'll never know to this day why I did, but I did. And it said he had an uncanny ability to solve complex cases. I thought, ooh. And he was badge number one in the LAPD. He was 64 years old, a 64 -year -old super sleuth with the moniker badge number one. I kept reading, and as I kept reading, I just felt that passion that the instructor was talking about. I thought, is this what it feels like? You know, something's going on here. And to this day, there are probably a lot of psychological reasons why that happened, but I said, I've got to write my book about him. That was it. There was no question. There was no forget the tennis. It was just that's it. I'm going to write my book about Jigsaw John, Bachelor of Order of the LAPD. I have no idea anything about homicide or detectives or anything. So I ran to Jim and I said, Jim, I've got a new book. I'm going to write this book about Jigsaw John. And he looked at me, you know, with the look that a husband would give a wife like, have you gone crazy? And he said, number one, you have no background in homicide or in crime or anything like that. Number two. The only time you ever met a cop was when your car was stolen and he came to interview you and you were so terrified you were shaking. And number three, you are not a polished true crime writer. Forget it. I'm off to the hospital. So that was it. It was a newspaper article. It was that passion. And I would tell any writer that if you don't feel that, you know. That's the thing that keeps you going. That's the thing that drives you. At least it does me, and it did me, for 13 years with John. That's how it all started, with a newspaper article. And I haven't, you know, someplace around here to this day, and I think to myself, how could a newspaper article send somebody on a journey with a person they had no idea who they were, older than somebody twice my age, and for 40 years? become a writer of two crime with jigsaw. That's how it started.

00:07:22 SPEAKER_02
I think, I think what you're saying about the passion is so necessary. You know, there has to be something there that drives you because I know the story you started calling him and he kept hanging up on you and he wouldn't take your calls. And then, but you persisted because you had that passion.

00:07:43 SPEAKER_01
You just put your finger on it, Kathleen. It was passion. And to this day, we'll never be able to exactly define, but it's deep, that feeling. It goes way deeper than just, you know, just this. This is something I'm interested in. You know when you feel it. And then what happened, of course, is that I called him. I called him and he turned me down. You know, imagine what he must have thought. Here's this woman on the telephone saying. Good morning, Mr. St. John. My name is Jane Howitt. I'd like to write a book about the Freeway Killer case. You know, and he hung up on me. I called the next day and I said, it's me. And he said, yes. What's your background? Well, I was a high school teacher and I've always loved writing. And, you know, this time, you know, he's probably holding the phone to hear. So he quizzed me. I didn't expect that. I thought that I would say, I want to write your book. And he'd say, great, fine, come on down and it's a deal. I thought for sure he'd jump right at it. And so. But he didn't, of course. And of course, he hung up on me. Six times he hung up on me. Okay? And this is when we're talking about passion. Don't give up.

00:08:50 SPEAKER_01
And there might be a point at which it makes no sense to keep going. But to me, it wasn't. So, I'll never forget this. I think it was the sixth call. I'm terrified. I don't know what I'm going to say to him. He knows I'm a pest. He wants to get rid of me. He does no part of me. And I think, what am I going to say? I said, Mr. St. John, how's the weather in Los Angeles? Can you imagine saying that to badge number one? He said, it's foggy and cool. And Mrs. Howitt, he said, tell you what, if you promise never to call me again, I'll meet with you. Bingo. It paid off. It paid off. I nearly jumped through the ceiling, and so I thought, okay, little did I know. I thought, that's just the beginning. Wait until I meet him, and we have a chat, and we'll have a book deal by the end of dinner. Didn't work out that way, Kathleen. Going back to a writer who's trying to decide, you know, imagine you have all these ideas about what you want to write about, which is the one that goes, you can't put it down. You cannot walk away from that book idea. You pursue it like you're a tiger. That's my take on how that happened, of course. Then the funny thing is that the meeting turned out to be at Taylor's. I don't want to tell the whole thing, but briefly as I can, he pulled a stunt on Jim and me that was just... An amazing thing, you know, at Taylor's. First, we have to decide where are we going to go for dinner? Because we agreed we go to a steakhouse. So, you know, I'm saying, well, Mr. St. John, we could go to a place where they have French soup or something like this. But we go to a steakhouse in Los Angeles. And I decide that I'm going to get the drop on this detective. I'm going to get there before he does. I'll see him when he walks in. So we go to Taylor's. And there's a lot of people sitting at the bar. But there are two seats empty. Didn't think about it at the time. So Jim and I sit down, have a couple drinks. And then Jim asked me, which one of these bar flies do you think of St. John? And I'm looking up and down and saying, not that guy. He's too skinny. Not that guy. He's too old. Not that guy. So we were supposed to meet at 7 .30. At 7 .30, Jim asked the waitress, you know, we're supposed to meet a Mr. St. John here at 7 .30. And she said, that's funny. You're sitting right next to him. So that was the first thing.

00:11:42 SPEAKER_01
was the first thing. And he'd heard every word I said. So I was terrified. I was embarrassed. But I thought, well, one for you, Mr. St. John. So after that, we sat and talked, but we went to sit down. He ignored me for the first hour talking about airplanes with Jim. So from the very beginning, he was testing me. From the very beginning, he got the drop on me. We sit down and he's ignoring me for an hour. And that was that moment when I said, this is a terrible mistake. He's ignoring me. He treated me like he and Jim were having a great time talking about airplanes. And I finished my dinner, and I'm sitting there thinking, well, this was not going to work out the way I wanted. Bottom line,

00:12:41 SPEAKER_01
in two instances, he showed me that, number one, he had the smarts, and number two, he was a pretty clever guy.

00:12:52 SPEAKER_01
clever guy. After that, I go to the restroom and I make up my mind, this isn't working. It's not going to work. And I come back to the table and it's dead silence.

00:13:08 SPEAKER_01
And that's when the third time that he pulled this on me,

00:13:15 SPEAKER_01
this on me,

00:13:17 SPEAKER_01
I'm sitting at the table and it's dead silence.

00:13:22 SPEAKER_01
dead silence. Nobody's talking. I'm thinking, well, what happened to all the airplanes? John and Jim are not talking. And he leads over and I can see his face. He's looking at me and it's dead serious. And he says a profanity that shocked me to my bones. And that was the moment when I thought, do I run or do I stay? And I...

00:13:54 SPEAKER_01
it's one again we're going to the one of those moments it's critical it's pivotal because if he says okay if i say i'm out of here that's the end of the dream so i sat and listened and and to i gave him my answer and and that was the moment i'll never forget when he started talking about the freeway killer case when he started talking about catching bonnen when he started talking about how he

00:14:11 SPEAKER_01
that was the moment i'll never forget when he started talking about the freeway killer case when he started talking about catching bonnen when he started talking about how he how the arrest of Bonnen went down, I was hooked.

00:14:27 SPEAKER_01
You couldn't have taken me away from that dinner table at Taylor's with a sawhammer. I was into John, his story, and after that, we talked a little bit more and we agreed to meet.

00:14:44 SPEAKER_01
that, we talked a little bit more and we agreed to meet. And that's how it all sort of happened. Not what I expected.

00:14:52 SPEAKER_00
I just have to interject because normally like Kathleen and I stop our, our guests from talking and we're both just, no, we're both just looking at her like this is the most interesting thing we've ever heard. So I,

00:15:00 SPEAKER_01
both just,

00:15:06 SPEAKER_00
I love it so much because I think that, you know, it's such a wild relationship that you had with John, you know, it's so out of the norm of what people get, what people get to do. You know, most people don't end up in a relationship with the, you know, the number one detective in the LAPD just coming off the street because they were annoying. I mean, that's what it came down to. You were annoying. He was like, I will go to dinner with you, so you will leave me alone. And then something happened in that moment, a series of tests, and he decided, all right, I kind of like this chick. Like, that's what he decided, right? Did he ever tell you, because I'm curious, I mean, did he ever actually tell you like the moment he knew that he was going to, you know, let this relationship between the two of you develop so you could write about him?

00:16:04 SPEAKER_01
Was there ever a moment? Certainly at Taylor's that night when we met, he told me later, he said, I intrigued him. I intrigued him with, number one, my tenacity about the phone, you know, about hanging up on him. He said, that intrigued him. And I intrigued him by the fact that I did research on the Bonin case before we met at Taylor's. So when we were having that conversation, I told him about some of the things I learned about some of Bonin's assistance. And so he said, I liked the fact that you kept after me. That interested me. Number two, that you did the research on the case. And number three, that you were pulled in. I could tell that you were really intrigued with the story. It had started to happen during the dinner. But then when we left, he said, I said something like, he said, this is going to take time to write this book. And I thought, okay, that's good. And then he gave me his gold card, which he doesn't give to many people. So by the end of the... Now, this is going to sound crazy. But at the end of the dinner, I thought the two of us had a possibility that it was going to work. When are we going to meet next time? I thought, okay, now that's sounding really good. So I would say from the dinner at Taylor's, we had slates. The groundwork was just very thin, but it was there.

00:17:36 SPEAKER_02
That developed into something that you went on for many years. And because he became, what I found so intriguing is he became like a grandfather -like figure to your boys. Your families did vacations together. And he also was taking you to places. One thing in the book that I really like is the scene where he takes you to the home of one of the victims, to the victim's mother. And I think he was a 15 or 16 year old boy who had been killed. And this was a new case. And he takes you there and you start talking with the mother and he lets you. Can you tell us about that? Because I just thought that was so fascinating how he handled it, but also what that meant to you.

00:18:29 SPEAKER_01
I think I'll preface that a little bit of that, Kathleen, with the fact that when we were preparing to go to. When I was preparing to go meet Barbara Bean, I was so insecure about this. Now, remember, I knew that he was going to be testing me. Does she have what it takes to write this book? How good an interviewer is her? I was going to be interviewing this mother of a murdered child. So I had notes. Like, you know, I was going to write a dissertation. I had pages of notes. I said, oh, Mr. St. John, look, I have all these notes to ask Barbara Bean for the interview. And he said, put the notes away. You're on your own.

00:19:08 SPEAKER_01
I thought, okay, I am on my own. This is either fish or cut bait time. So the notes were over here. I knew I had to rely on myself, on what I had in here to connect with the mother of this murdered child. So to go back to your question, was it? You wanted to know a little bit more about that interview? Yeah,

00:19:29 SPEAKER_02
because you developed a relationship with her, and she did something for you that she had not done for St. John. Tell us that story.

00:19:38 SPEAKER_01
That she did for me?

00:19:40 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, she took you into the bedroom.

00:19:41 SPEAKER_01
Well, I think the first thing that John handled so well was, of course, Barbara and I were like this with each other. I was in the house, in the kitchen, talking. And he was doing all of the conversation.

00:19:59 SPEAKER_01
And I was waiting for an opening. When will I get to talk? Finally, he opened the door so I could start talking to Barbara. And I thought, how do I start this? So basically, I basically said, Barbara, tell me all you can about your son, Stephen. And I want to hear all of it. And it was almost as if the floodgates opened. All you had to say was, tell me about him. We talked about him and what she went through. And after the conversation, I was surprised when she said, would you like to see his bedroom?

00:20:37 SPEAKER_01
And I didn't even stop to think about, do I want to see it? Of course. So the two of us, and at this time, Jim and John are just sitting there listening to her tell this terribly tragic story about how the last day, the last... the last night with Stephen and what that was like so we walk arm and arm into Stephen's bedroom and I not arm and arm yet we were just two and two so we walked into the into this kid's bedroom and I thought his bedroom looks like any other young youngster's bedroom here are the trophies here are some of his some of the things that he made when he was in you know when he was in a certain class. Here's some of his school books. Here's this. Here's that. And I looked around and I thought, and she stood while I walked and took in his room.

00:21:33 SPEAKER_01
in his room. And she liked that. I could tell. And she said closer to me, and I remember her saying, and here's his death certificate. And that's when I froze. That's when the moment that Here's this young boy who's not there anymore. This is his room. He's not there anymore. And she's watching me. And here's his death certificate. It was like, he was alive. Here's his school book. Here's his trophies. Here's some of the things that he drew. But now he's gone. And that got me.

00:22:07 SPEAKER_01
me. I said, yes, I took it, looked at it. And I think that was kind of a moment, Shen, when she and I connected. I accepted the fact that he's gone, and I felt wonderful in his room. And I asked her, could I just walk around a little bit more by myself? And here are two women, both with young—I had a boy her age. I have two boys that age. And here she is with her no more Stephen. And it was really nice. There was a moment when we left.

00:22:40 SPEAKER_01
was really nice. There was a moment when we left. And we went out of that bedroom, arm in arm. Mother, mother. Oh, she asked to see pictures of my boys. And I took out pictures of my boys, and she touched them like, I can protect them. You know, I'll protect your boys from what happened to my boy. In a matter of one hour, two women, you know, one whose son's,

00:23:11 SPEAKER_01
her wonderful son was gone, and mine, We're alive. I never experienced anything like that before. And I had a new appreciation for, I tell you what, I had an appreciation for her courage. Here was a woman who'd been through so much, and yet she was warm.

00:23:32 SPEAKER_01
She was real. She was more real than some of the people I'd seen on the tennis court sometimes. And that was a big opening for me, a big eye -opener.

00:23:43 SPEAKER_00
I mean, one other thing that I think, Jane, that you do really well, and just from, I mean, full disclosure for me, I mean, Jane and I have been working on her website for five years. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And,

00:23:58 SPEAKER_01
yeah, yeah.

00:23:59 SPEAKER_00
you know, I have the pleasure of monthly, you know, reading her blogs and making sure that all the commas are in the right place before I post them. Because they're not always. No.

00:24:12 SPEAKER_00
But, you know, I think one of the things that you do really well, Jane, is you take yourself, like,

00:24:19 SPEAKER_00
like you're in the experience when you write about it, but you're almost not. It's, it's like how you related to the experience without writing about it, making it about you. And I think it's a really beautiful way that you write. and interject, you know, ideas and thoughts. And I mean, even things like when you're writing about your travel experiences and maybe not always on the true crime stuff, but, but I think that that is actually, you know, it's a, it's a strength in your writing. And, and I wonder, you know, if,

00:24:54 SPEAKER_00
if like, if you had that before, or if it was meeting these people and, you know, just like how you relate to it, like, do you, Do you know kind of like where that writing style came from or did you start writing?

00:25:09 SPEAKER_01
I have no, you know, honestly, Adana, I don't know where that came from. I think if I had to put my finger on it, I'd say John and I have two things, several things in common, but one thing we both have in common and we both realized it early was great interest in other people and compassion for them. And that's who you are. I don't think you can make that up. People have it or they don't, I think. You can't learn compassion. It doesn't come from here. It comes from here. And so when I see, like even with St. John, you know, I held that back for a long time, compassion about some of the things that had happened to him, attacks, bad stuff.

00:25:54 SPEAKER_01
So at some point, and slowly we let that happen, the feeling that we had for each other, and I could let that out. I held it in, and so did he. But he saw that in me with that interview with Barbara Bean. He said, I like... And when we took off and went to the bedroom and left Jim and he in the living room, when we took off to Stephen's bedroom, that was the moment when the women broke. The men stayed and talked about whatever they talked about. We walked apart. I'm getting chills thinking of it. We walked apart into a...

00:26:32 SPEAKER_01
bedroom that belonged to her son and he was gone and when she talked about the time that they would watch Dracula together and they would do all this together and all I could think was my boys and hers is gone and mine I felt it was almost unfair and so I think John saw that he saw the connection between Barbara and me and I think that was one more little niche

00:26:52 SPEAKER_01
I think John saw that he saw the connection between Barbara and me and I think that was one more little niche in my favor. I didn't do it on purpose. It's just who I am.

00:27:05 SPEAKER_00
And that's not the only time, I mean, you've made connections with someone on a human level. I mean, because he took you not only to victims' families, but he also took you to, you know, accomplices and things like that to talk with them. I mean, you got both sides of this world, you know, in your time with him. And I, you know, I know you write about it in the book and you've written about it as in, in a blog and blogs too. And, and it's a really interesting thing, but wasn't one of them, you brought them pie. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:27:44 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. But you said just triggered something interesting in, in my thinking when we're talking about, about that. And I, I thought, you know, Adana, the two worlds we came from tennis, That world was kind of, I hate to say it, but it's kind of superficial. What he told me was breathtaking. But he opened up my eyes to people who, the courage and the passion and the ability that these people who have so little and have gone through so much still have, they were, I just fell in love with them. I really did. I thought, these are the people I want to... These were his people. These were the people he cared about. These are the people he went to work for every single day. And I had never imagined that there would be lives like this coming. So the upstairs -downstairs thing was huge. Huge. Huge for both of us. And you say, so where does that come from? You know, I think it's the makeup of who we are. And he and I both had that same... interest in and compassion for the downtrodden, the people who don't have and the people who suffer. Yeah.

00:29:07 SPEAKER_01
If that makes any sense. It does.

00:29:10 SPEAKER_00
It totally does. And I mean, I also think, which is something we haven't talked about yet. I mean, you know, you worked as an airline stewardess,

00:29:11 SPEAKER_01
totally does.

00:29:18 SPEAKER_00
a high school teacher. You also have a degree in psychology. Yes. Master's degree.

00:29:24 SPEAKER_01
Master's degree.

00:29:25 SPEAKER_00
So, I mean, I think that it's an important thing that kind of, you know, is an umbrella over this whole experience, which is an understanding of psychology and the human psyche and how you adapt and deal with individual people from that level where they're at. Because, I mean, psychology teaches you to do that. It teaches you to understand, you know, the serial killer to the serial killer's victim's family. I mean. You know, it's a broad spectrum, but to be able to look at, I mean, you and I, I don't know if you remember this, but we had a really deep conversation about Bill Bonin years ago. And we discussed, you know, like his childhood and how violent his childhood was and how that affected him. And even in that conversation and all the terrible, horrible, awful things that that man did. you still found a threat of compassion for him and that child that was so terribly abused. Yeah, you're right.

00:30:31 SPEAKER_01
You're right, Adana. And that came from a book that somebody, well, it came from me too, but I understood it from a psychological point of view when I read the book Ghosts in the Nursery. Ghosts in the Nursery is, if you think about it, Ghosts in the Nursery, that's where these killers come from. They are... They don't just all of a sudden turn evil.

00:30:49 SPEAKER_01
don't just all of a sudden turn evil. Looking at Bradford's and Bonin's background scared the living bejeebies out of me. The kids were left. The Bonin kids, while Alice Bonin went to play whatever she was playing, Mahjong or whatever, she didn't know her kids were fed. She didn't know they were not washed. Her two young boys and the grandfather was a... abused them. And the father was, who knows, I can't remember where he was, but where these kids came from was abuse, was neglect, was violence, was sexual abuse. Kids. And abandonment. Is there any surprise? And Bradford, Bradford adored his, imagine this, this young sensitive boy is abandoned by his mother who decides one day she wants to become an ingenue in new orleans she walks off i've pictured this in my mind here's this young little boy and the mother is has her her hat on dress all dressed up the cab is waiting outside and he walks out the door and that's it and i imagine this little boy and the father is an alcoholic I had this idea in my head. Imagine looking at the closet, her closet. Empty now. All her clothes are gone. And the hangers are going back and forth. And he's gone. There's the cab. Takes Mother off. Is it any wonder he hated women? Surprise!

00:32:36 SPEAKER_01
I don't think any kid is Mother's... But if you put that together... And then from there it went downhill. You know, he's living now with... He had grandparents and they don't know what to do with them. And he said, is it any surprise he turned into a juvenile delinquent? I mean, I think for his birthday, here's the final thing. For his birthday, when the grandparents are deciding, what should we buy him? They don't know what to do with this kid. Let's buy him a camera. A camera. You know, when he winds up photographing, you know, using that as the tool to get women into his, the lure to get women into his car. So the backstory of these killers, I could have cried for him. Imagine this. I've seen some of the autopsy, not the autopsy, but I've seen some of the pictures of the young boys. But I thought to myself, so this killer, look at what his life was like when he was a young kid. Is there any surprise? Bottom line. Ladies and gentlemen, those children must be treated like they have to be treated with love and respect. So it all happens, some of it happens in the nursery.

00:33:58 SPEAKER_00
Well, Jane just proved my point in what I was saying about, you know, even in these horrible, you know, violent crimes that these men perpetrated. this canny way of, or uncanny way, I guess,

00:34:07 SPEAKER_01
these men

00:34:13 SPEAKER_00
of finding, you know, the threat of humanity in them and writing about them. And it brings this really unique flavor to her story, which is her story with this cop, but also the ability to find compassion and humanity for both the victims and, you know, these serial killers, these. criminals, these people who, you know, most of the time we look at and go, oh, they're despicable. You know, they're awful. How could anybody do that? And, and understanding the psychology of what actually forms somebody into specifically a serial killer, because that's a whole different thing than just,

00:34:59 SPEAKER_01
a whole different

00:35:01 SPEAKER_00
you know, your run of the mill killer, I guess.

00:35:05 SPEAKER_00
But, but I mean, I, It's one of the things, you know, in working with you over the last five years on the artistic side of it has been so much fun for me because, you know, we've gotten to create this sort of visual mood to your stories each month. Just keep doing it, you know, like we take the stories and we build images around it. So when people land on your blog. You know, they get a real feel for like Jane and the world that she lived inside of for that 13 years.

00:35:42 SPEAKER_02
Oh, yes. And one of the other things is, is in the book, she has the like crime scene photos because John gave her access to all of that. And those are in the book. I mean, the most frightening, scary one is inside the murder van where they, you know, that which one was it that killed the kids in the back of the van? Bonin. Just the photo looking in the back of his murder van. It's like, oh, my God.

00:36:05 SPEAKER_00
Just the photo looking in

00:36:13 SPEAKER_02
Besides the wonderful stories, there's fabulous pictures that illustrate the world you're wandering through, the alleys where the bodies were dumped and different things like that, the desert where the bodies were buried. Those places that you went with with John really pull the whole picture together of what... You were experiencing watching you develop and change and realize there was other things out there in the world than the world you had grown up and were accustomed to. Yeah, your personal development.

00:36:49 SPEAKER_00
Like being able to eat lunch in the morgue.

00:36:55 SPEAKER_01
Well, Dan, I think what would have happened at any one of those situations if I would have said, you know, this is really too much. Ladies, let's have another round of tennis. You know, I was so, and there were times when I would be in the morgue or I'd be in some, you know, in an alley or someplace with John. And I think, well, now the ladies back home in Spanish Hills, they've got a match at three o 'clock. I wonder how they're doing. And I thought I wouldn't trade places for any of them for the world because I'd rather be in the morgue. And I'd rather be in the morgue watching these people. You know, the bone saws hang, you know, is right outside the door. And they're taking their hot dogs out of a vending machine. I just thought, well, this is the way it really is. This is the real world, folks. This is death.

00:37:50 SPEAKER_01
And death scared the bejeebies out of me. The idea of going to the morgue, I thought for sure I'd faint. But I didn't. I was intrigued with the autopsy. Where did the bullet go in? Where did this, you know, what kind of a weapon was used for this kind of a slice or whatever? And funny because Jim was kind of, Jim was freaked out by death. Death is a loser. Death for a physician is, you know, it's the end. It's failure. Thank you, Jim. It's failure. For me, it was. And I'm leaning into this thing. This guy is cut, you know, from here, from chest down, big, open wide. Oh, really? That bullet went in there? The trajectory is that way? So what kind of caliber was that bullet? You know, and pretty soon it became, the more I went into it, the more I learned, the more I met people, it just became better and better and richer and more interesting. And then, of course, there was the relationship. And John, all this time, he's thinking, I know any minute now she's going to run. She's going to go back to those little tennis balls. And I surprised him by going, okay, where are we going next? It was better than any tour. You got the ultimate e -ticket. I did. I did. I really did.

00:39:16 SPEAKER_00
did. With a perfect tour guide. I have a question. And I mean, it's along the lines of everything that we've talked about, but, you know, Jim seems particularly supportive of you in this endeavor. Like, you know, now from what I know now, I mean, how did this journey affect your relationship, you know, as a married couple? I mean, I would think, you know, from the wife that's safe and content and. you know, sort of secure and maybe a little bit of a vapid existence going to play tennis every day and, you know, whatever, whatever else that, that kind of sort of country club life looked like to, you know, the mother of his children being like, I'm going to go ride along with this cop, you know, while he investigates serial killers. I mean, I, my husband would be like, wait, I don't know if I'm cool with this. I love, you know, he, and he's very supportive of me, but I think there might be a moment where he's like, I don't think so. I don't like this. I'm going to create the scene for you,

00:40:22 SPEAKER_01
you, Adana. And this is when Jim and I have, we've, we've been dating for a while. We were serious. We knew that we were going to, that marriage was, was, was, was in the, in the scene there. And so we were, this was in San Francisco. And we were sitting on the steps of this. I had a condo and a really nice apartment in San Francisco. We're sitting on the steps and we're talking about what we want to do, who we want to be. And I wish more couples did that because I, he said, I'm going to be a physician and I'm going to tell you right now, you know, that there will be lots of times my patients are going to come first. It's just the way it is in my life. And are you okay with that? Fine with me. I'm going to be a writer. And I'm going to write books. And I want to write books like Hemingway and Fitzgerald. And I want to write books that will just make people feel wonderful. And I'll be a writer. Anyhow, so it was because of that, we both knew what we wanted to do, who we wanted to be, and nothing was going to get in our way. And I think that kind of understanding with a couple. And so I was with Jim when he... On the long road it took to become a physician, he was with me, with what I want. We would not have been the people we dreamed of being if we hadn't decided early on, this is what we were going to do. And we set our goals and we worked hard to achieve them. I think that's kind of the secret. You know, there was no question that that was going to be the end point. We were going to become, he was kind of a physician. I was going to become a writer. The roads to those two goals were long and hard and tough and filled with lots of downtime, filled with lots of tears, filled with lots of, you know, giving up things we wanted to do, but we just kept going towards those goals and achieved them. So that would be my, and supportive of each other every step of the way.

00:42:31 SPEAKER_02
Your persistence is something, you know, you just, I will persevere. Seems to be your motto.

00:42:38 SPEAKER_01
Exactly, Kathleen. I will persevere. And, you know, it's the hero's journey. And I've learned a lot more from the failure than I have from success. That's how you learn. Yeah. And it hurts. You know, I weighed my rejection pile one time. It was like two pounds of letters. It's not right for our art. It's not good. It's not this. It's not that. And I thought, well, here's another one. But every one of those rejection letters that I got, I thought, you know, they're right. I need to be a better writer. I need to work harder. I need to be more focused. I need to be more writing groups. I need to write, write, write, write. But I said, someday, that's going to be a letter that says yes. And I persisted in that because I knew that I could do it. And it was just who I was going to be. And a lot of it, like you kind of said, Kathleen, too, it's who you want to be. It's not just what I want to do. It's who I want to be. I want to be an author, not just a writer. And achieving that after 42 years took 50 years.

00:43:52 SPEAKER_01
years. Then I become and I am the person I want to be and doing what I want to do. And now I want to write book number two, book number three, book number four. I want to write and I want readers to get the thrill of reading a book and going, that's me. That character is me. I know that feeling. If I can connect with another person, I have a book in my hand, but if I can connect with a person I don't know, never seen before, haven't met for coffee or tea. And she and I or he and I go, I know that feeling. I just think that's powerful. I just think that's huge. And only writing, writing, music, the arts, a beautiful painting. That's what the arts are so great for. And seeing something that just takes your breath away. That's what I'm after.

00:44:41 SPEAKER_00
Well, and books are, you know, I really believe they are birthed when they need to be. And, you know, you're. You're like now, you know, getting it to where it is now and that it's going to be released and, you know, it's now going to be in the hands of the next people who get to read it and learn your story is it's the best time for it. Because if you had done it 20 years ago, there was there was I mean, there's always been a market for true crime, but I don't think there is now. I mean. Netflix constantly has the Gabby Petito murder thing was just released. Hulu, all of these channels are constantly releasing miniseries and movies and documentaries about true crime and their podcasts. There are all these things that didn't exist 20, 30 years ago. I think that it means that your book gets to fall into these other stories. and be elevated with them because most of them are about the people who were murdered or were the murderer. They're very rarely about, you know, kind of an interloper who came into the world and went, wow, this is all really interesting and I'm going to write about it.

00:46:05 SPEAKER_01
If I had to put another image on it, because I know we all writers like images, I would like to think that my reader, My goal is to put my reader in the backseat of that Crime Victoria. I want that reader to go on the same ride I went on. I tried to ride thinking, this is where I went. See what I saw? This is where I went. See what I saw? This is crime. And I saw it from John's Crime Victoria. And I want readers to see it, to feel it, to sense it, to taste it. I went with her. It's just like, okay, Sally, you bought this book. Come on, let's go on a ride. And John is the driver. And I want them to experience what I did because it's crime. That is crime as crime really is. And I got to experience it. And I want readers to experience it. Not from, you know, just the dark alleys and the guns and all this other stuff. There's humanity there. There's a richness there. There's richness in crime. There really is. In compassion and all this other stuff. I want people to feel that and understand that.

00:47:21 SPEAKER_02
I think that is a wonderful place to end. I was just thinking that. You have summed up, I think, the author's journey through writing. Because this isn't just you writing about St. John. It's the two of you. It's a true crime memoir. from a completely different view, where you were there and you actually weren't going back afterwards. You were actually participating and being there and going into the courtrooms, all of these different things. But anyway, Jane, I want to thank you for being with us today. Jigsaw and Jane comes out March 13th. And I really hope that all of you will get a copy of it. And from March 14th for five days, It's going to be a free e -book on Amazon.

00:48:11 SPEAKER_00
Amazon. And that will be 99 cents. And then after that will be 99 cents.

00:48:11 SPEAKER_02
Amazon. And that will be 99 cents. And then after that will be 99 cents. So do pick it up or just get the print book. You know, you might want to highlight a few things if you're really into true crime because this is a different look. And obviously Kathleen and I are a bit of fangirls for Jane.

00:48:27 SPEAKER_00
Kathleen and I are a bit of fangirls for Jane. I'm a fan of you too,

00:48:35 SPEAKER_01
fan of you too, Kathleen and Adana. You've been such an important part of this journey for all those years. Could have done it without both of you. It's been a long, good ride for all of us, I think. Thank you.

00:48:48 SPEAKER_00
So you can learn more about Jane and her story at janehowitt .com. You know, the website is laid out to really kind of lead you through her story, the story of the victims and the killers. And she has five years worth of blogs on there to read as well. So not only get the book, but also, you know, you can really kind of envelop yourself in Jane's world just on her website alone. So Jane, this was a pleasure.

00:49:19 SPEAKER_01
It was a pleasure. Thank you so much. You too. A delightful morning conversation. Thanks. Thank you, Jane. You bet. Thank you.

00:49:31 SPEAKER_00
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