On Author Branding and Social Media with Jeniffer Thompson

In this episode of Talking Book Publishing, hosts Kathleen Kaiser and Adanna Moriarty sit down with branding and marketing expert Jeniffer Thompson to discuss how authors can build a strong brand, navigate social media, and boost visibility in a crowded marketplace.

Jeniffer, the founder of Monkey C Media, shares how to identify your audience, leverage influencers, and create a sustainable social media plan using tools like Canva, Buffer, and Hootsuite. She also discusses the importance of authenticity in marketing, finding comparable titles, and ensuring your book cover and online presence match your genre and brand.

The conversation also highlights the power of consistency, why book series perform better over time, and how authors can avoid common marketing pitfalls. Plus, Jeniffer previews her upcoming February 17th webinar on "The Power of Social Media," hosted by the Writers & Publishers Network.

This episode is packed with actionable strategies every author can use to build their brand and sell more books—don’t miss it!

We’d like to hear from you. If you have topics or speakers you’d like us to interview, please email us at podcast@talkingbookpublishing.today and join the conversation in the comments on our Instagram @writerspubsnet.

Transcript

00:00:04 SPEAKER_01
Hello, and welcome to this episode of Talking Book Publishing. I'm your host, Kathleen Kaiser, along with my co -host, Adana Moriarty. And today we have a wonderful guest, Jennifer Thompson, who's very talented with marketing and social media, web design, branding, a whole lot of topics. I've known Jennifer probably six, eight years, something like that.

00:00:28 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, maybe more.

00:00:31 SPEAKER_01
Jennifer, welcome. I want to begin with saying that Jennifer is going to be holding a webinar for WPN on the power of social media on the 17th of February. Tell us a little bit about what people can expect from the webinar.

00:00:52 SPEAKER_03
Thank you for having me, Kathleen. It's nice to be here. Yeah, we're going to talk about really how to use the power of social media to get more visibility. My favorite, my love in everything I do is really branding and teaching people how to build their brand, how to connect the dots of their brand, and use that to leverage more visibility and building an audience. So we're going to talk about who is that audience? Who are you trying to reach? Who makes the most sense? And what platforms are they on? I talk a lot about influencers. When I say influencers, I mean people who are currently influencing your audience, right? So if they are already getting the attention of your audience, how can you get the attention of that influencer? Because you get a lot more mileage from someone who can amplify your message to 5 ,000 people than trying to reach one person at a time. So we talk about identifying audience and then influencers, which platforms to be on, and then really just how to manage your social. In a way that's sustainable, because I don't know about you, but just thinking about social media can be exhausting in and of itself. So putting together a plan and using tools like Canva and Buffer and Hootsuite to really make it manageable and sustainable. I talk about joy a lot because as authors, it's really difficult to make money, right? It's easy to spend money in publishing and easy to spend money, difficult to make money, right? create a sustainable plan that works over time. Because I think that's the beauty of social is staying connected to your audience, staying connected to the thread of your own brand and doing it in a way that's joyful. If it doesn't bring you joy, then let's figure out how to change that. And then, you know, creating content needs to be joyful and authentic. And I love using the word authentic because of course I'm going to be authentic, right? It's me. But the minute we start putting ourself out on social, instantly it becomes inauthentic. You know, we're trying to be someone we think we need to be. That's not sustainable for us. It's not joyful. And it's certainly not authentic for our target, whoever our target audience is. So, you know, research and trial and error and being willing to make mistakes. So I'll talk about all of those things in a, I think it's a 45 minute webinar. So we'll have a lot to cover.

00:03:09 SPEAKER_01
Perfect. You brought up something that I always find interesting in working with authors. is defining their audience. Audience is so important. And yet, and I always know somebody has no idea what they're talking about. And they say, oh, it's a book for everybody. I mean, there's no such book.

00:03:31 SPEAKER_03
That's the number one answer I get is everyone needs to read my book. I'm like, wow, that's a really tough target to hit. Yeah.

00:03:40 SPEAKER_01
What are some of the things that you think? All right. Well, one of the things I think is very important is that authors need to read their competition. And it's not really competitors, but it's people that's in their genre and see what they're doing. Go on their social media, do things like that. Look at the reviews of what they're saying. I find it really interesting that if you're writing a legal thriller and you haven't read one in five years, You know, how do you know what's selling?

00:04:17 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. You know, comparable titles are so important. And people have a hard time finding comparable titles. And I think it's because they're looking for a book that's just like theirs. You know, I hear this often. There's no book like mine. This is a very unique story. And so my answer is always, we're not looking for a book that has the same story. We're looking for themes, themes of friendship, themes of sisterhood. You know, once we find the themes, then we can use keywords related to those themes to find books like that on Goodreads or Amazon or Google, wherever you're doing your search. I think Amazon is the best search tool when it comes to doing comparable research. And people need to remember that a comparable title needs to have been published within the last three to five years in order to be relevant in the space that you're trying to market in. you know, to position your book. And Kathleen, you're absolutely right. Read those reviews. And you know, my favorite thing to do when I'm trying to figure out what makes this book different is read the one star reviews. What are people angry about? Like, what did they not get out of that book that you might provide in your book? And that can be the thing you hang your star on, you know, when you're marketing. So comparable titles are more than just... where is my book going to sit on the shelf? How am I going to market this book and position this book? Who's reading this book? Who's not happy with this book? And then where are these authors getting visibility? What social platforms are they on? And getting engagement, of course. And what influencers do they follow? And where are those influencers speaking? It's like this rabbit hole of information that can tell you everything you need to know to build your brand and your roadmap for marketing success.

00:06:07 SPEAKER_00
I think all of this is such great advice. I want to back us up a little bit because we jumped right into what we're going to do in the webinar and we didn't actually get to know Jennifer. So can we just step back a little and tell us your story? How did you fall into where you are right now?

00:06:28 SPEAKER_03
Well, I appreciate you asking instead of reading my very boring bio, right? You know, my story is very unique because I went to school to be a journalist at San Diego State here in San Diego. And I ended up doing marketing all the time. I worked for a publishing company. And I love telling this story because I said to my boss, the publisher, I said, why aren't our books in Barnes & Noble? And he said, well, we just can't get them to carry our books. And I thought to myself, well, that's a terrible answer. How do we change that? So I put together a spreadsheet of all of the Barnes and Nobles within like a 50 to 100 mile radius. And we had a team of 12 people. So every day I would have them call one of the Barnes and Noble and ask if they had our books as if they were a customer and then check it off. And then the next day they'd call another store. And so 12 people calling all of these bookstores, it took less than two months for Barnes and Noble to call us and order our books. So I think I realized then that while I'm... a writer. I went to school to be a journalist. My passion is really figuring out how to get a yes. And book marketing is dealing with a lot of no's. And publishing in general is getting a lot of no's. So how do we get that yes? So I loved publishing. I was in the music industry for a while. And then I worked for a magazine. I lived in Portland, Oregon, working for an outdoor magazine and was kind of trying to find where I belonged in the world. And I was doing publicity and marketing for a yoga studio, of all things. And the owner had a client who was publishing a book. And the client said, do you know anyone who knows anything about book publishing? And she said, yeah, well, I think Jennifer used to work for a publisher. You should ask her. I ended up helping this woman publish her book. This is back at the very inception when Dan Pointer was doing his thing. You know, the godfather of self -publishing, if you haven't heard of him, listeners, look him up. He's amazing. But, you know, Dan Pointer showed us that we don't have to follow the traditional publishing model. And that's what I did. I helped this woman publish her book. And then guess what happened? I got a referral. And then someone else came to me. And pretty soon, I had all these people wanting me to help them publish their books. And then I got invited to speak at a conference. And I said to my husband, I think we might have a business here. And that's really when Monkey Sea Media started was 2003. But officially, we became a company in 2004, which, by the way, happened to be the year of the monkey. Now, I don't know a lot about Chinese Zodiac. frankly, but I do know that monkeys are entrepreneurs and they're creatives and the year of the monkey is a really good year to start a new business. And of course I learned all of this later, but so here we are 21, 21 years later, you know, monkey see media has just been something that has never really been a job. It's been the thing I do with passion in 2007. I realized we need, well, actually, let me just put it this way. We were designing book covers, helping people publish and building websites. And I found that people would never use their website. It's like we were giving people the keys to a brand new car. They'd pull it in their garage, park the car, shut the garage door and never drive the car. And I'm like, what is happening? Why are people not driving the car? And I realized it's because they don't realize that they are the brand. You're not selling a book. You're selling yourself as an author. So if we can teach authors. how to brand themselves, then they'll drive the car because the website is only a tool. And so that's really what I've been trying to do, trying to teach and spread. And people are figuring it out. I mean, Kathleen said that earlier in this conversation, before we started recording, people are just now starting to get, yes, you need a brand. Brands are not just for Nike and Starbucks, folks. Authors do need a brand. And the brand is really for you. Because it helps you stay on point with your messaging, right? It's about understanding your own value and how to put yourself out into the world in a way that's engaging and exciting and sustainable. So I realize that I've gone off topic. You asked me to talk about it. Oh, that's wonderful. I love the path that took.

00:10:36 SPEAKER_00
it. Oh, that's wonderful. I love the path that took. And I mean, we talk about branding a lot and I talk about branding a lot as an author. I always kind of explain it like, you know, I mean, you can go to Target or McDonald's anywhere in the world and you know at Target and McDonald's. And even though you're an individual, you want people to be able to know that you are you from afar, from your book, from your website, from whatever you're going to produce. Like, so I think, you know, I think that going your story into branding was perfect.

00:11:13 SPEAKER_03
Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean, it just happened organically. And the question is, why do people care? Why should I care? You can have a polished brand and a great logo and a great look, and it's all consistent. But if your messaging is not consistently targeting the needs of your audience, then it's really not going to work. So why do people care? What do you want people to do when they land on your website? How do they take this information? and move forward and engage with you. And so those are the tricks that really we're trying to, and we're trying to answer those questions. We're trying to create a gap and then you have the answers to fill that gap for your audience.

00:11:52 SPEAKER_00
So do you recommend for people to like figure out their audience first and maybe some comp titles before they kind of start working on their author brand? Is that, is that like kind of how you would advise?

00:12:07 SPEAKER_00
advise?

00:12:09 SPEAKER_03
That's not how I do it. I don't know that there's a right way or a wrong way, but I always start with you. What makes you happy? What brings you joy? When are you happiest in your work? And I find that people are looking to get better at the things they're bad at. I think just as humans, this is human nature. I don't know how to do this thing, so I'm going to learn how to do it and then I'll be a better human. But in branding, I want to identify your strengths and your weaknesses and then figure out how to lean into those strengths. And then make a plan to get someone to help you with the weaknesses. Because then you become an expert. So I figure out who are you? What are your strengths, your weaknesses, your core values? What makes you happy? You know, really go deep into the psychology of you. You know, we talk about things like, I've got this, you know, my daddy was really hard on me when I was a kid, right? And this is my story. So because he was so hard on me, I have a hard time. not wanting to like work harder to get it done and prove my worth, right? So that for me is a weakness. Even though it might seem like it's a strength that I just want to work really hard and burn the midnight oil to get it done, it ends up hurting me in the long run for my brand. So we really get down to the essence of who you are and what makes you tick and what makes you happy. So that when we make choices for your roadmap, and when I'm talking about your roadmap, I mean like, What platforms on social are you going to be on? What is your website going to do? And what's it going to ask audience members to do? How much are you going to give and how often? So if we figure out who you are and what you're capable of, you're more likely to follow that roadmap in a sustainable, joyful way. If we start with the audience, what I think is a mistake is now we know what the audience wants and we know who the influencers are who are influencing that audience and what they're doing. Now, if we create a roadmap based on that information, it might not be sustainable and it might burn you out. In fact, it's very likely.

00:14:11 SPEAKER_00
likely.

00:14:12 SPEAKER_03
What's that? Or you get lost.

00:14:15 SPEAKER_00
Or you get lost. Yeah, because you focus on everybody else.

00:14:15 SPEAKER_03
Or you get lost.

00:14:20 SPEAKER_00
I wouldn't have thought of it like that, but I mean, to bring out the most authentic part of you as the author, to be able to present it to the world. I like that strategy. I think that's a really good way to do it. I mean, really focus on the individual whose work that we're trying to highlight.

00:14:46 SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and that way people relate to you because it's genuine. You know, unless you're really not aware of things, you can sort of tell when people are stretching it. You know, you can tell when something isn't coming across, right? Tone of voice, the way they look,

00:15:01 SPEAKER_00
know, you

00:15:07 SPEAKER_01
you know, different things like that, where if you're just being you, it comes straight across. And that's what people want to know. I mean, it's a different world when we start relating to people now through social media or Zoom or videos and that. It's a completely different world. And when you're genuine, it comes across. Your pitching, it's so obvious. At least I find that. Absolutely.

00:15:37 SPEAKER_03
I also think that the reason the brand, starting with you and who you are and your strengths and understanding your own core values, it's a barometer for every decision you make. Is this in line with who I really am? Regardless of your objectives and your goals, but is it in line with me as a human? But also... It helps you in your confidence because I work with a lot of women. I work with men too, but I find that women are more likely to second guess their own expertise and their own value. So having the courage to say, hell yeah, I'm good at this. I am good at what I do is so paramount in presenting a brand that people are going to trust and respect and want more of. And so digging deep into those elements. helps people go, yeah, you know what? I do have value. I've been doing this a long time. I do have that credibility. And it sets you up for success in your presentation of your brand. And how you talk about yourself, even just writing your own bio, I think, can be one of the hardest things we do as authors. I wrote a book on it. It was meant to be a blog post. And next thing you know, it's a book. Because it's one of the hardest things we do. How do I talk about myself in a way that... Promotes the best of me without making me sound like a braggart.

00:16:58 SPEAKER_00
Writing your own bio is impossible. It's so hard.

00:17:03 SPEAKER_03
It's so hard.

00:17:03 SPEAKER_00
so hard. Yeah.

00:17:04 SPEAKER_03
Yeah.

00:17:05 SPEAKER_00
It's really, I don't know. I mean, the first time, I can't even remember, but Kathleen said she needed a bio for me for something. I don't even remember what it was for. And I was like, can you write it for me? I don't even know what. What to say. I mean, even like the bio that ended up in my own book, I, I don't love, you know, I mean, I think it's, it's, there's a unique art in bio writing anyway, not just for you, for anybody. Anyone.

00:17:34 SPEAKER_01
Anyone.

00:17:35 SPEAKER_00
Yeah.

00:17:36 SPEAKER_01
You know, what I found is interesting because I know how hard it is. I used to have to write bios for other people. As a publicist, you put together their kit, you have their bio and everything. Trying to do it for yourself is unbelievably hard. But I recently have done this twice with clients, men who had resumes. Okay. And I said, all right, we'll add something to it. But I put their resume up into AI and I said, take this and write it as a 300 word bio. And it's so condensed it and it didn't, you know, was right. And then I added in something about them personally and why they are now off. drawing from this experience into being an author and it was so much easier than sitting there struggling with bullet points and times and dates and cities I mean I remember doing that for years and it's like oh my god it's so much easier and then you pull it all together and keep the focus with how this relates to why you should be enjoying what they've written in this book yeah

00:18:48 SPEAKER_03
I am really a fan of leaning into AI. I talked about it earlier, what are your weaknesses and your strengths, right? So if your strength is writing bios, then by all means, go for it. But most of us don't want to spend our time doing that. So if you can get just a framework, then you personalize it, of course. But it gives you a starting point. I think it's the hardest thing. Staring at a blank page, trying to figure out how to tell people how great you are, it's difficult. It's hard on us. Leaning into AI for social media also, and I'll mention that when we do our webinar on February 17th, of how we can use it to benefit us in a time -saving way. It's not that AI is going to write it better than we would. It's just going to get us closer to the finish line and give us ideas. Absolutely. I'm glad you mentioned that, Kathleen.

00:19:41 SPEAKER_00
That was my first journey into AI was taking the bio that I had and working with it in AI. And it jazzed it up. And then, you know, you take it back and you clean it up and you make it sound more like you or whatever. But I mean, as Kathleen knows, I joke all the time that ChatGPT is my best friend. I'm a big fan of using AI as a tool, a time -saving tool. if you're stuck tool. I mean, I think that, you know, there's a big fear out there of AI and it overtaking the world or, you know, it's stealing creativity. And if anybody's actually played with it, it's not.

00:20:25 SPEAKER_01
No, that's a lot of fear talking. And I think it's also, it's not to write a book. That is something totally different. I don't believe in it for that at all. But marketing is a science.

00:20:32 SPEAKER_02
is something

00:20:35 SPEAKER_02
But marketing

00:20:36 SPEAKER_01
is a science.

00:20:38 SPEAKER_02
Yeah. And there are steps and processes and all of that.

00:20:39 SPEAKER_01
there are steps and processes and all of that. And you use the best tools that you can get. And why spend three, four days writing a media kit when you do it in 10 minutes and under with all of your changes? Right. It just cleans everything up.

00:20:57 SPEAKER_00
I mean, like Jennifer was saying about, you know, finding your comp titles. I mean, there is no better way to find your comp titles than to utilize AI.

00:21:09 SPEAKER_00
your summary or synopsis or whatever into chat GPT or perplexity or whatever it is that you're using and saying, I need to find comp titles for my book so I can market position.

00:21:16 SPEAKER_03
whatever it

00:21:17 SPEAKER_00
is that you're using and saying, I need to find comp titles for my book so I can market position. Like there's nothing that is going to find it faster and cut your research time down than AI. Like it just isn't, it's impossible. It can read the entire internet in like 20 seconds.

00:21:38 SPEAKER_03
It's crazy to watch it as it's unfolding in front of you. It's mind blowing. You're like, oh, okay. All right. Thank you.

00:21:46 SPEAKER_00
Yes. Thank you very much. I tell it. Thank you all the time. I'm like, thank you so much. And it's like, you're welcome. How else can I help you? That's great. I love it. I'm like, thank you. That is so awesome. Thanks.

00:22:00 SPEAKER_01
You know, the first time I had been leery of AI. I had asked Adana to rewrite her bio for something. And, you know, it wasn't coming. It was a podcast website.

00:22:10 SPEAKER_00
a podcast website.

00:22:13 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. I think when we were redoing that. Yeah. And so I, then she just sends me this one. I go, well, this is wonderful. You know? And she goes, well, it was AI. And I go, oh, really? Let's throw mine in. I mean, it's the one I already had written.

00:22:26 SPEAKER_00
it's the one I already had written. It's not like I was like, my name. Anna Moriarty create a bio for me. And now I actually, I take my bio and when I need it for different things, I'm like, hey, can you take this bio and restructure it? I need it for, you know, I'm going to be a speaker on this panel or I'm going to do this thing or I'm creating this website or like whatever it is. And it interjects, you know, it will switch it so it reads better for that. moment or that event or whatever it is. And that has been such a wonderful thing because sometimes you need your bio to read differently. Like, you know, if you're going to be on a panel about marketing versus, I don't know, a design summit, like, you know, they're different things. Like you need your bio to read differently. And I think that there's no better way to use AI than that.

00:23:28 SPEAKER_03
Absolutely agree. And frankly, you should have various versions of your bio and different lengths with a different call to action, depending on who the audience is, all ready to go. Not being prepared for that, it can be a devastating situation because that's, in a lot of cases, it's your introduction to a new audience. So if it doesn't have the best of you in it and a call to action, people forget to put a call to action in their bio. Like, great, you sound amazing. What do I do next? How do I get to know you? So that could be anything from listen to my podcast or follow my newsletter or subscribe on my website and give the URL. Those little elements are very important. And connecting the dots of your brand, I like to say that a lot.

00:24:10 SPEAKER_01
You're absolutely right. Well, when you think about authors, let's take James Patterson because he has the same font and his name is sometimes, I think, getting bigger and bigger on the cover of his books. But that's his brand. And it's like when I tell people, when you're going to get your website, you don't get the name of your book. You get your name. And if you can't get your name, put, you know, like janedoauthor .com. Absolutely. I mean, that's the brand. Your name is the brand. You are the brand. And I mean, look at him. I mean, I don't think he even writes books anymore. Because they always have his sub -editor's names are now getting on the covers. But he's done a fabulous job of branding on that. You almost see that thought, you know who it is. You know what book it is. You know what kind of story you're going to get. Yeah, absolutely.

00:24:40 SPEAKER_02
Absolutely.

00:25:07 SPEAKER_03
You just said it. Readers know what they're going to get. So they don't really care what the title of the book is. They want to read it because it's another James Patterson -approved novel.

00:25:17 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. And that's really a thing, especially like I think series, if you can write a series, it's so great because you start, first off, you start to get your characters even better. They start to develop and they start having these lives, just not the adventure you've got them on, but their lives develop and things happen. And then, you know, if it's a mystery or whatever, they're... following it falling into even with cat mysteries you get to know the cat better you know that's right yeah the cats develop even funnier little twicks and trends but the readers fall in love with it and i know several times i have like when when you used to when i used to be in the airport a lot and i would get a find a paperback and i go excuse me that that would be great to read on the plane home i had a

00:25:50 SPEAKER_02
right yeah

00:25:51 SPEAKER_01
the cats develop even funnier little twicks and trends but the readers fall in love with it and i know several times i have like when when you used to when i used to be in the airport a lot and i would get a find a paperback and i go excuse me that that would be great to read on the plane home i had a five -hour flight home from the East Coast or something. And then I find out, and I was like, whoa, and I really got sucked into the book. Then I find out it was number eight of a series. I'd go back and buy the whole rest of them. Absolutely. And that's what you want. And I think setting up, and it's your name that you're looking for. Now I look for that author.

00:26:27 SPEAKER_03
what you

00:26:34 SPEAKER_01
I look for people. It's like when I read the first Sookie Stackhouse book. I was like in number six or seven. I went back and got all of them, started through them because these characters and you as a writer get the joy of bringing them to life more. And they become an entity. I'm sure they live in your house constantly. Oh,

00:26:59 SPEAKER_03
yeah.

00:27:01 SPEAKER_01
You take that and you build that into this marketing that's incredible.

00:27:08 SPEAKER_00
Well, and they say that like, you know, the first book never does great. And it's like second, third and fourth books that do better. And then, you know, and then that makes the first book or first and second book sell. Because it's not just getting to know characters, it's getting to recognize that author. And that is what like, you know, what we're talking about is this recognition of the author, and that you know that you like that book because, you know. James Patterson wrote it or Stephen King wrote it or the Stephanie Plum series. What's her name? You know, like she has like 40 books in that series. You know, like I think that that's what we're really doing is we're really getting recognition as an author. The more books we have in a series, especially if you make sure that you're staying on your brand.

00:27:59 SPEAKER_03
I think that's the key right there, Adana. People don't realize they have a brand. I mean, Lisa C is another good example. She writes historical novels and they all have a similar feel and tone and voice. That's her brand. She might not have realized that she had a brand, but her publisher certainly did. And you can see it in all of her marketing materials and the way she presents herself to her audience as well. You know, another great series to check out. And I interviewed this author, Matt Coyle, on my podcast, which is the premise. We talked to authors and publishing people. And I interviewed him about his series about Rick Cahill. And it was so fun talking to him and how he developed his brand and how his character absolutely lives with him, Kathleen. He's a big part of his life, but it was fun to watch him. And I don't think even he realized in the beginning when he wrote book one that it was going to take book three or four. for people to finally start discovering the book. It's true. The number one thing that sells your first book is your third book. If you do it right, if you connect the dots, if you stay connected to your audience, because if you have to start over in your marketing plan with every book you write, you're never going to get there. It has to be steps. You're getting higher and higher toward that place of whatever that place of success looks like for you. You're getting closer to it because you've had more steps. So connecting those is really important. And we do that with all of our tools. Our tools are social media and speaking and websites and Substack and whatever it is. Those things connect the dots.

00:29:34 SPEAKER_00
things connect the dots. I mean, we do that with ebook campaigns. We start, you know, if it's a series, we start with book one and two and then, you know, whatever. Like if the next one is the new release, then we do the new release and then, you know, we'll bundle the first two together. Like, you know, like you create this sort of. breathing thing for the new book launch. That's right.

00:29:54 SPEAKER_03
That's right.

00:29:56 SPEAKER_00
And then you use your social media and we use our social media. And, you know, I mean, it's like a living entity. 100%. Yeah,

00:30:04 SPEAKER_03
100%. Yeah, absolutely. And then it's fun and exciting and not daunting, right?

00:30:11 SPEAKER_01
Right. I also think book covers and how you name your book and what you do. It's like I remember many years ago, it was Sue Gaffton that came out with the alpha A is for, B is for the murder mysteries as she went through the alphabet. I mean, you walked into a bookstore, you saw that big A, B, or you knew whose book it was immediately. And that's also part of the marketing and branding is the look that the book's character is also branding.

00:30:44 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, it's the product is also branded in its own as its own entity. That's right. Yeah,

00:30:49 SPEAKER_00
I think that's why people who, you know, are multi genre might struggle with selling books too. Because I mean, I love the idea of being multi genre, because you know, we all have so many stories to tell. But I think, like, in a way, you need to establish yourself first before you branch out into a new genre. So like you have an author brand and people recognize your name. And then you can be like, you know, I'm playing with this new genre. You want to read my book? Because if you try to do that from the get -go, it's chaotic for the reader. They don't know what they're getting from you. And I think that that makes it hard. Now, I mean, I think like if you write a book of poetry, you could write a novel. Like those are very different things. But if you're writing romance and all of a sudden you're like, I'm going to write horror or thriller or sci -fi, like they're really different and the audience is really different.

00:31:52 SPEAKER_03
This kind of, I could not agree more. And it kind of goes back to what we were talking about in the beginning when people think, you know, my audience is everyone and that's a tough target to hit. And I like to use Harry Potter as a good example. Harry Potter was very clearly branded as middle grade in the beginning. That doesn't mean that only middle grade readers read the book. Women in their 50s also fell in love with Harry Potter and read the book because they understood what the brand was and who it was targeting. They know they were interested in that. We have to think of it in that way. It doesn't mean that by homing in on your audience that you're not going to get those other readers. They're more likely to find you because you're so clear in what you're selling. And I think that's really important for people to remember.

00:32:39 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. So there has to be clarity in your message.

00:32:43 SPEAKER_00
I also think that those big books were middle grade books because they are bad. Right. To have like, you know, a sixth grader be so entranced. And my niece and nephew were those sixth graders, fifth graders that were like, you know, man, they just. Couldn't get enough of that series, but I know adults who have read it and love it. And when we think about all of it together, when we're thinking about social media and we're thinking about our websites and we're thinking about our covers and our fonts and the way that we communicate, like, you know, the tone of voice that we use on social media or in our website copy, all of that comes down to like, what are you selling? And if you change that every book, A, that's so much work for you. Right, right. Like to have to change your website every book. Yikes.

00:33:44 SPEAKER_01
That's not really focus. It's more scattered gun. I mean, you take Stephen King. He wrote quite a number of books before he branched out into other things, you know. Right,

00:33:54 SPEAKER_03
Right, and he did it with a pen name too, you know, not to confuse the brand. Yeah.

00:33:56 SPEAKER_01
to confuse the brand.

00:33:59 SPEAKER_01
He didn't mess up his brand.

00:34:02 SPEAKER_03
And I'm sure that was driven by the publisher because they knew their audience and they didn't want to mess up that good thing, right? Right. Don't confuse your audience.

00:34:11 SPEAKER_00
Yeah. I mean, and I think that that comes down to just, that's like the essence of marketing your book and being successful. And when we look at, you know, when we're like, man, why is that guy so much more successful than I am? Like, why? If you actually went and examined why. I 100 % it's their branding. Yeah, absolutely.

00:34:32 SPEAKER_00
And how that pulls across all of their platforms.

00:34:35 SPEAKER_03
their platforms. That's right. Consistency, relevancy, staying on point, knowing what your audience wants so that you can deliver that is huge. And that goes back to comparable titles and identifying your audience and knowing what you want to spend your time doing so that you can continue to deliver. Biggest mistake I see is authors are so excited that they say, I'll do whatever it takes. And that is really dangerous because if you commit to everything, it's going to break. It's going to break you, either your pocketbook or your emotional bandwidth, right? Of like how much you have to invest of your emotional bandwidth. If you're realistic about it from the beginning, then you can be consistent. I have a good example. There was a woman who had a blog called Yum Yum Vegan. It was really popular. And I subscribed to it because I had really great recipes. And I'm not even a vegan, but I loved her blog. And then one day she just quit. And it was always consistently published on the same days. And I would always check it out. And she had great writing. And then it just stopped. And I'd check in a couple weeks later. I'd be like, oh, yeah, I must have missed it. And a couple months later, she posted, guess what, everyone? I got picked up by a publisher. I'm so sorry I haven't been online, but I'm going to get back to it. And she was so busy with her book that she neglected the one thing that was going to sell her book. And I didn't buy her book because I totally forgot about it because she was no longer on my radar.

00:36:11 SPEAKER_00
I have that conversation with clients of mine, especially ones that we've been working with for a while, that as they get closer to publishing and that stuff kind of sucks them in. But like they cannot neglect all of the work that we've done because what was the point of that? I mean, the whole point is to be consistent and, you know, kind of get the snowball effect, right? And then if you six months out or a year out or whatever, like end that stuff that you've been working on because this other stuff feels overwhelming or it's a lot or whatever. What have we done? Yeah. What have we done? Yep.

00:36:56 SPEAKER_00
So I think that's a really important conversation. And it's just an important reminder to authors everywhere. Like, don't spend, you know, years and years working on your blogs and your social media presence and all this stuff and then go, I finally got the book deal. Yeah. Keep going. Yeah, keep going. It's your connection. Because of what you were doing. Right. Yeah, exactly. Don't just like, oh, I. I won it. Now it's somebody else's time because that's not how today's book marketing works.

00:37:17 SPEAKER_03
your connection.

00:37:21 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, exactly.

00:37:31 SPEAKER_03
Well, that's true. A lot of authors think that I got a traditional publisher. Now I don't have to do anything that's on the publisher. Well, that's absolutely not true. And even less so, they do even less marketing now than maybe they did 20 years ago.

00:37:45 SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I saw that. The so 20th century point of view. That is so gone. Just so 1900s.

00:37:51 SPEAKER_03
so gone. Just so 1900s.

00:37:52 SPEAKER_01
so 1900s.

00:37:55 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

00:37:56 SPEAKER_00
totally. Kathleen always has another really great piece of advice with book cover and genre, which I think ties into that, which is like print a mock -up copy of your cover and then go into the section that your genre is and compare it. Totally, yeah.

00:38:14 SPEAKER_01
yeah.

00:38:15 SPEAKER_00
If your book looks like a romance book and it's sci -fi and it's in that section, people are going to think that it's in the wrong section. They're not even going to read the back cover. 100%. This doesn't go here. They're not going to buy it because it looks different. I've heard the theory that, well, if I make my book cover look different than others in the genre, it will stand out. And what I think it actually does is it literally makes people go, this book is in the wrong section in the bookstore.

00:38:39 SPEAKER_02
what I think

00:38:45 SPEAKER_03
So true. Yeah, we're drawn to things that look like other things we like. And, oh, I read a book that this reminds me of. I'm going to pick it up and see if this has that same feeling. Whenever we design, yeah, go ahead. Oh, it's consistency. Yeah, consistent. Absolutely. Well, and it's expectations, right? So our readers have expectations. We must meet them and fit squarely in the genre. Whenever we design a book cover, we put it on a shelf. So we have four comparable titles and the proposed book cover. How does it look next to those other books? Does it fit? Does it make me want to pick it up if I've picked up those other books?

00:39:24 SPEAKER_01
The other thing that makes it so important is I'm very big on e -book promotions. Nice. And using the many e -book promoters that are out there, we have about 15 or 20 we really love. I'd love to know what they are.

00:39:38 SPEAKER_03
love to know what they are.

00:39:39 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. And depending on the genre. But what you have to do is you've got to remember so many books are bought online and your book is only like three inches high at the most.

00:39:55 SPEAKER_02
And usually an inch.

00:39:57 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. It's usually about an inch and a half. Somebody is looking at, let's say, James Patterson, and you have a book in his thing. Amazon, if you've done everything correctly and the algorithms are there, your book cover could stream, have also bought or also liked, and you see it. Well, your cover has to fit in with what everybody else's. It doesn't look the same. They will not look the same, but it has to have the same kind of feeling. It has the same kind of... design aspects that those readers like. And so it's putting your book cover up against the top five books. Just go on Amazon and say your legal thriller is your genre, but have them pull up the top best -selling legal genre,

00:40:26 SPEAKER_02
has the

00:40:46 SPEAKER_01
legal thrillers, screen grab the covers and put your cover up with it.

00:40:52 SPEAKER_03
Totally. Yeah. It's easy to do, right?

00:40:56 SPEAKER_01
It's very easy to do. I mean, the internet has made it so much easier to do things and find things.

00:41:03 SPEAKER_00
So much easier, but also oversaturated. That is very true.

00:41:07 SPEAKER_03
very true. It's oversaturated,

00:41:08 SPEAKER_01
but as a research tool, I started my life in market research. I was a publicist before that, but I went into real marketing as market research. You got to know who their competition is and see how you look with them. Do you stand out, but everybody else is in? golds and reds and you're pink right right right you know and it's a genre that men are gonna read maybe or a large portion of men read you know just think about it because and with ebook promotions they get that email with five different book covers adana had this interesting conversation with one of our vendors that he said if they don't like the book cover they don't even read the description they scroll on So your book cover is your biggest selling tool in that sense. It's your first impression.

00:41:55 SPEAKER_02
your book cover

00:41:56 SPEAKER_01
is your biggest selling tool in that sense. It's your first impression.

00:42:00 SPEAKER_00
sense. It's your first

00:42:02 SPEAKER_00
It's the first thing people see, whether it's on Amazon or in the bookstore. The first thing that anybody sees is the cover. And if the cover doesn't match what you're selling, like, you know, it's never going to sell or nobody's going to read the back description or. you know, the blurb on the side of it on Amazon, they'll just keep scrolling. And, you know, when we talk about oversaturation, like making sure that your marketing is on point, right? That helps you stand out away from the crowd because there are a lot of people out there who aren't marketing. They think they can throw their book up on Amazon and because it's on Amazon, it will sell itself because they're awesome. And I love that idea. But Amazon sold, what did we, we have a statistic somewhere like 300 million copies of books last year. Like you can't compete with that. You know, that's ebook and print book. I mean, I'd have to look up the actual, but it's something crazy like that.

00:43:08 SPEAKER_03
Extraordinarily. Literally a needle in a haystack.

00:43:09 SPEAKER_00
Literally a needle in a haystack. A hay in a haystack is what you are. You're not even a needle. You're a hay in a haystack.

00:43:19 SPEAKER_01
You're just a threat of straw. But what it is also is Amazon says 99 % of their people that self -publish never do any advertising, never do any promotion, never do anything. So actually, if you do anything, you're in the 1 % that's actually doing something. You're narrowing the market a bit for your, you know, upping your chances by putting it out there. They go, well, I've put years into this. Why should I spend money on marketing? I said, because you put years into writing it. Exactly. The lifeblood is in there. I mean,

00:43:56 SPEAKER_00
mean, I feel like I have that same conversation just about websites alone. Like, you know, they're like, oh, well, why do I need this? And I'm like, why don't you need this? I mean, I mean, the moment I know for me, when I see a book that I like,

00:44:04 SPEAKER_02
why don't

00:44:11 SPEAKER_00
the first thing I do is Google that author, right? Google, I look for their social media. I look for their website. I mean, like that was before I did all of this. I mean, like you want to know. And in today's world, you know, speaking back to that authenticity of like your social presence, I mean, people want to feel like they know you. They don't want the elusive author. They don't want to buy from a total stranger. They want to buy from somebody that. they feel like is like them or that has a similar something or can teach them something or, or, or, and, you know, making sure that you are your most authentic self, especially if you're self or indie publish, like, you know, not having somebody else maybe necessarily manage your social media, but help you manage your social media. So your voice is your voice. And, you know, all of those things, because like, That's what people are looking for today. We have exposure that authors of the past never had.

00:45:19 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:45:22 SPEAKER_03
And you can get help. You don't have to do it all yourself. The key is to hire someone who understands your voice, who can write in your voice. Or maybe you write it and someone else posts it. Or maybe you only do it once a week and you use a tool like Buffer to make it sustainable. There's ways to get around. Any roadblock you can find, we can find a way to remove that roadblock and make it possible.

00:45:43 SPEAKER_00
Well, I'm really excited for Jennifer's webinar. I mean, like, I know that I'm going to learn stuff and I do social media. So, I mean, but I just know just from talking today that I know that I'm going to learn stuff in the 45 minutes hour that we get to hold her. Hostage.

00:46:06 SPEAKER_01
And also, everybody that's going to attend, bring your questions because Jennifer, as you can tell, has wonderful answers, lots of information that she can give you. And you can answer some of your fears or quandaries about what are you doing wrong or something and do that. So that will be on Monday, the 17th of February at... 6 p .m pacific and if you go to wpnwebinars .com you can oh no it's not there anymore oh okay we've moved everything yeah it's right it's on the writers and publishers network yeah writers and publishers network .com you'll see the graphic with her picture right but by the top of the page click on it and you can register there we've moved some things and i'd forgotten yeah so anyway

00:46:42 SPEAKER_00
yeah it's right it's on the writers and publishers network yeah

00:46:46 SPEAKER_01
writers and publishers network .com you'll see the graphic with her picture right but by the top of the page click on it and you can register there we've moved some things and i'd forgotten yeah so anyway But Jennifer, thank you. This was an interesting conversation. Oh my gosh, thank you. And then I'll put Jennifer's contact and everything in the show notes so they're easily accessible to everyone who's listened and wants to learn more about what Jennifer does or maybe working with her or whatever people out there want to do.

00:47:05 SPEAKER_00
my gosh, thank you. And then I'll put Jennifer's contact and everything in the show notes so they're easily accessible to everyone who's listened and wants to learn more about what Jennifer does or maybe working with her or whatever

00:47:25 SPEAKER_00
out there want to do. Awesome. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that.

00:47:29 SPEAKER_01
Well, thank you for taking time to talk with us, and we'll see you on Monday night, the 17th. And that's it for this week, or this episode, not this week, this episode of Talking Book Publishing. I'm Kathleen Kaiser, along with Adana Moriarty and our guest, Jennifer Thompson. So thank you, everyone, and we'll see you at the next episode.

00:47:58 SPEAKER_00
Talking Book Publishing is brought to you by Writers and Publishers Network. It's a resource for writers and indie publishers at every level and offers tools to be successful in their writing career.