On the Journey of Women in Leadership: Eleanor Roosevelt and Beyond

In this episode of Talking Book Publishing, co-hosts Kathleen and Adanna engage in a captivating conversation with accomplished author Robin Gerber. Robin, renowned for her works on Eleanor Roosevelt, Katherine Graham, and Ruth Handler, shares her unique journey from writing columns to becoming a published author and renowned speaker. The conversation delves into how Robin's book on Eleanor Roosevelt transformed her career and her perspective on leadership and resilience, making for an inspiring narrative.

Robin discusses the unexpected paths her writing career has taken, including her public speaking and playwriting involvement. She offers insights into her latest projects and reflects on the challenges and triumphs of writing about historical figures who have shaped the world. Robin reveals how her book on Eleanor Roosevelt, a true testament to the power of storytelling, not only transformed her career but also created a lucrative career in public speaking, where she inspires audiences with stories of women in leadership. The episode is a powerful testament to perseverance, passion, and the transformative power of storytelling.

We’d like to hear from you. If you have topics or speakers you’d like us to interview, please email us at podcast@talkingbookpublishing.today and join the conversation in the comments on our Instagram @writerspubsnet.

Transcript

00:00:05 SPEAKER_03

later, but there's no thought whatsoever. And then you also look at

Kamala Harris. I mean, she's had an amazing four days, but this comes

after three years where, let's be honest, most voters haven't been

paying attention to what she's doing. They really don't know her. And

she has been underestimated in the political world, in the media, even

among her fellow Democrats. one of the things that shaped this moment

were a lot of guys said we have to stick with Biden because

commonwealth would be too risky and now in the last four days she's

coming out hey Kathleen pause will you pause the recording i'll do it

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four days she's coming out hey Kathleen pause

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pause the recording i'll

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recording i'll do it

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Hello and welcome to Talking Book Publishing. I'm Kathleen Kaiser with

my co-host, Adana Moriarty. And today we have a very interesting

author who I think has done some really smart things in marketing her

book and actually taking something from her catalog and bringing it

forward. So I'd like to introduce Robin Gerber. Hello, Robin. Hello,

thanks for having me. Yes, thank you for joining us. I'm referring to,

of course, your book about Barbie and Ruth and the way you repackaged

it to let, you know, come out with everything that was happening with

the Barbie movie. So tell us how that all came

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about. Gosh, I wish I could take credit for that. I'm afraid that my

book, Barbie and Ruth, which was first published in 2008 before anyone

knew who she was and was published by Harper,

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They did not reissue it for the movie, much as I tried to get them to,

but Mattel commissioned a tabletop book for the 60th anniversary five

years ago, which they asked me to write the text. They reissued that

tabletop book, which I think is what you're talking about. Oh, okay.

Yes. Yeah. And that, but I actually had nothing to do with that. And

since we're all authors and talking about what happens with authors,

it's the only book I ever wrote as where I don't have royalties. It

was a work to, what do you call it? Work for hire. Work for hire.

Yeah. So actually when they called me and said

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Work for hire.

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me and said they were reissuing it and they wanted to make some

changes, I said, well, you need to pay me. And they're like, no, no,

no. Your contract said we were allowed to do that, which it does. So

all I got was 20 more books. But if I'm

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I'm lucky, the original 60th anniversary is now selling for like, I

think $1,000 or more. Wow. I'm just going to hang on to my 20 books.

Maybe it's going to be worth

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worth something. Yeah, put them up on Amazon at $1,000 each.

Underprice them,

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$8.99. Well, right now you can buy that reissued 65th anniversary book

for like $20. Okay, so you've had a very interesting career in

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had a very interesting career in writing. You write about very

successful, some

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of our early pioneers, women who have forged ahead, starting with

Eleanor Roosevelt. My mother was a huge fan of Eleanor Roosevelt. She

was of that generation and she was one of her idols. She looked up to

what she did, how she created her own life. She wasn't just a wife.

and everything after, you know, President Roosevelt died, going ahead

with her work with the UN and everything. How did you select her to be

a subject and what was it like to

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research that? Yeah, that was my first book. And I was writing a lot

of newspaper magazine columns. And I had a mentor who said to me, who

had written about 20 books at that point, his name is was James

McGregor Burns. He was a Pulitzer Prize winning author. of a book

about FDR, and I was working with him. And he said, you need to write

a book. Books last. And I said, well, a book? That sounded very

daunting. But there was this genre of books about leadership, which

was what I was doing then. I was running a leadership academy for

women and underrepresented people. And this genre of books was Lincoln

on leadership, Patton on leadership, Reagan on leadership, Gandhi on

leadership, Founding Fathers on leadership. Are you getting the idea?

Yeah. There were many, many books like this, and they were all about

men. There was one about a woman. You're trying to guess right now,

but I bet you won't. Elizabeth I, CEO. They hadn't got that far back.

I'm like, wait, I have to go back 500 years and across the ocean to

find a woman. So I thought, well, maybe I could write a book like that

genre about a woman, American woman. And then I thought, well, Eleanor

Roosevelt was pretty famous. I didn't know much about her. But the

movie, the one with Anne Hathaway that made her famous, Princess

Diaries. Princess Diaries had come out, and in that movie, on her

bedroom wall is a poster of Eleanor Roosevelt, saying, no one can make

you feel inferior without your consent. Later, I learned that the

screenwriter was a big Eleanor fan, and that was kind of the theme of

the whole movie. So I went with my daughter to see that movie, and I'm

like, oh, I guess she's still pretty contemporary Eleanor.

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made a pitch and Penguin bought the book. And I start writing about

Eleanor and I just fall in love with Eleanor Roosevelt. And she's been

my great subject for 22 years now. And that book, Leadership the

Eleanor Roosevelt Way, is still in print. And I evolved a speaking

career talking about leadership and the stories of her leadership with

corporations. And I've been in a

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professional speaker, corporate speaker for 20 some years. So that was

how I came to Eleanor. Thank goodness. So you developed your speaking

career because of that one book? Yes. You know, it's really a lesson

in the unintended consequences can be quite wonderful when you try

something new. So I tried something new. I wrote a book. It was

published in my 50th year. I'd done many other jobs before that. And I

went to Barnes and Noble to give a talk, my first book talk ever. And

a woman came up to me afterward and she said, would you come speak at

our grocery manufacturers conference at the Greenbrier, which is a

very, very fancy resort outside of Washington, D.C., and we'll give

you a free weekend. And I said, yeah. So I go and it wasn't a keynote.

It was a breakout session, but I had quite a full room and it was fun.

Didn't hour. And then I went to their big dinner. They had a very

fancy dinner and they sat me next to Patrick O'Connell, who was a

founder of the in at little Washington, which is a five star in and

restaurant just outside of DC in Virginia. Very

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famous. And. He's a very proper British guy. And I said to him, my

God, can you believe we got a free weekend at the Greenbrier just for

talking? And he said, you mean they didn't pay you? And I was like,

they pay you? So I didn't know there was

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was such a job as speaker. But the next week I was at a conference, a

women's conference, and they had a wonderful speaker, one of the first

women in the women's NBA. And I went up to her and I said, would you,

can I take you to lunch? I need to know what is this business of being

a speaker? And she very generously did have lunch with me, Mariah

Burton Nelson. We're still Facebook friends. And she told me what it

was. And from that grocery manufacturer's talk, I got three more

requests. So. That's how my career

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career started. Thank you, Eleanor. I always think it's so

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interesting, you know, like there is this myth that as a as a writer,

as an author, you can't make money because it's so hard. But there's

so many avenues that you can take to make money. like you did as going

from writing this book to becoming, you know, like having a career as

a public speaker. And I think it's really important for people to

know, like, you know, if they have a subject that they can talk about,

like you can sell that as

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that as a service. Yes, very much. And I've, you know, helped a lot of

people, people call me and ask how you can do that. And there's a lot

to know about it. You have to have a good product to sell like

anything else. Eleanor was a great product. And then I wrote about

Catherine Graham. Sorry, I'm getting over a cough. And then I wrote

about Ruth Handler, who was unknown in 2008. And, you know, I've had

speaking right now, I'm getting quite a lot of speaking requests for

Ruth

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Handler. She was Jewish. And so from Jewish federations, which are

major philanthropies all over the country, having a lot, a lot of fun

with that. It's a good. Could you just like talk a little bit

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about, I mean, like you have a subject, but like, what are those talks

actually look like when you go, you know, to somebody's conference,

like they hire you and you go in and then. I mean, are they like

leadership conferences? Like, is that, and you talk about this subject

and how they

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led. So I, I did run this leadership Academy and I'm, I am an expert

in women's leadership. And when you're, when you write a book, you're

really an expert. So, you know, I wrote the book leadership, the

Eleanor Roosevelt way, and that helps a lot to get speaking. So yes, a

lot of the talks up till the recession of 2009, many corporations had

given money to their women's groups. So like Deloitte and Touche, I

spoke for them all over the country. They had a lot of money for these

women's groups. And they would have major luncheons at gorgeous

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clubs. And they would have, I mean, I was the warm-up. I said I was

the warm-up act for, I spoke because I'm a good speaker. But I'm not

famous. So I was the warm-up act for Sandra Day O'Connor, Barbara

Walters, Jihan Sadat, Mary Madeline. It was like a joke, because they

were getting, you know, you can make a lot of money. I mean, I was

getting $7,000, $10,000. But they were getting three, four times that

or more, because they were famous, which is a little frustrating. But

I'm not complaining. It was these were great gigs, a lot of fun. And

then corporate conferences where you I'd like to be. I'd like, you

know, speaking so much like running workshops. But I have I've done

that, too. And then eventually I got hired for years by a company

called Institute for Management Studies. And I would come in and do

talks for them. And then during the recession, 2009, it collapsed.

because companies cut off that money. And then, of course, COVID. I

don't like doing it on Zoom. So it's just starting to come back. And

oddly, because of the Barbie movie, people heard about me because I

was interviewed ad nauseam last year. I mean, all from outlets all

over the world. But the

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Baltimore Jewish Federation A woman called me from there, and I just

did a big talk for them, and Vanguard had me. And I'm hoping to get

more with Jewish federations. There's others who are interested. And

interestingly, I said to them, well, the talk I had just given, the

talk at Vanguard, and it was a leadership talk for women. It had 1,700

people. They had 350 in the room, and another, whatever, 1,400 on

Zoom. And it was a leadership talk. And I said to the Jewish

Federation, well, wouldn't you like more of a biographical talk about

Ruth Handler? And I said, here's what the leadership talk entails. And

they said, oh, no, we really like that. And they loved it. I'm Jewish

myself, and I put in more Jewish elements into the talk. But it was

still, essentially, the talk was how to create a global icon. You

know, we all have great ideas. There was a time before 1959 when there

was no Barbie. She was an idea. And how did Ruth Handler take her from

an idea to a multi-billion dollar product that has changed culture and

sparked, practically sparked revolutions and is still going strong?

Anyone can do that. That's available to anybody. and there's steps to

get there. So I tell that story. It's all stories. You have to be a

storyteller. You must be a storyteller. Stories are... I was just in a

little writing group. I'm in here in Ojai with some younger women,

which is nice. And one of them is quite a good writer, but she was,

you know, telling, not showing. And I said, you know, turn this into

stories. You really have something. You've got to show. You've got to

bring the reader in. Same thing in speaking. You've got to create a

story that people can see. I don't like to use PowerPoint, although

with Barbie, I kind of have to, because people really want to see the

doll. But as I say, I didn't write a book about Barbie. I wrote a book

about Ruth. She's much more interesting. That book is Barbie.

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is Barbie. What? Ruth is Barbie in a way, you know, that she she

created her. And more than

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that, I think she created her because with the high concept idea,

little girls just want to play being big girls. But she was that

little girl because her mother, she was the tenth and last child of

Polish Jewish immigrants. And her mother was quite sick when she had

her and gave her to her eldest sister to to be raised. Her older

sister was 20 when she was born. And Sarah, it turned out, couldn't

have children. So Ruth was her only child. She never lived with her

parents. She never went back. And she also never spoke Yiddish, which

is what they spoke. Because she didn't grow up with them, she couldn't

actually ever talk to them like the other nine children. So I think

there was a way that she felt that she had to show she could take care

of herself. So she was, Sarah ran a little, not little, she ran a

diner in the Denver market, which was a big open market under a, not

open, it was, you know, in one of those giant hangers. And, you know,

you go in, buy meat, cheese, fruit, and her husband sold liquor. And

she ran like a diner or cafeteria. And Ruth was working in there when

she was 12 years old. She was a little girl who wanted to play She

wants to be a big

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girl. Yeah. I think I told you my next door neighbor, she was huge on

Barbie. She graduated from UCLA, and that was the only place she

applied for a job, and she got it. And she spent her entire career in

the Barbie division. She was in clothing. I looked back at some notes

to try and remember. She was in designing the clothing in that. But

Kay spent her whole career there. She loved it. I think it's a great

place to

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work. I don't know how it is now, but it was certainly a great place

under the handlers. Ruth really was the management side. Her husband,

Elliot, was the designer, the creative side. She had one toy idea. It

was a pretty good one. But they knew their workers very well. They ran

a completely diverse workforce. They got many awards from the NAACP.

And if you watch this new documentary about Black Barbie, The woman

who thought of that worked in Mattel. And she talks about Ruth coming

around and saying, do you have any ideas? She wanted to hear from the

workers. She respected her workers.

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Yeah, that's what Kay, I remember I saw Kay maybe 20 years ago. And

she said, I said, so you've been at the same place because I'm one of

those people that went here and learned stuff, then went here and

learned stuff. I bounced around a lot industry to industry. And she

said, no, it's a family. We all have the same passion. I'm respected.

And she says, I hear all this stuff about sexual harassment. She goes,

we have no problems. Yeah. And she goes, I, you know, I said, boy,

have you been lucky?

00:18:49 SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, or smart. Well, smart, too. I know women say we're lucky

too much. Men don't say

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too. I know

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that. They say we don't

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have to.

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Yeah, I'd like to go back because you said something in the very

beginning of when we first started recording about how when you

started writing the book about Eleanor, you didn't know anything about

her and then you fell in love with her. And I would I would like you

to just maybe expand on that. Like, what was it like? What was that

moment where you were

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you were like, man, I just love this woman? Mm hmm. Well, first of

all. Eleanor had a very difficult and tragic young life. Not that I

related to that, but the transformation she went through, her mother

really didn't love her because in 1884 when she was born, her mother

was considered the most beautiful woman in New York. They had such

designations in Knickerbocker society. And she had this baby who was

clearly not going to be

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this baby who was clearly not going to be pretty. She just wasn't a

very attractive baby. And she wasn't a beautiful woman. And for her

mother, that was all that counted with a girl. So she had this kind of

cold mother. And her father was an alcoholic and drug abuser. She

adored him, but he was the way alcoholics are. He was unpredictable,

unsteady. By the time she was five, he'd been banished from their home

to two little brothers. When she was seven, her mother died of

disease. The next year, her youngest brother died. And when she was 10

years old, her father died of the alcoholism and drug abuse. And she

was sent to live with her grandmother on her mother's side, who had

three adult children, who were just drinking and carousing and

spending down the fortune. This was the richest people in America.

This was, you know, like our royalty. They were literally, she's

literally descended from the Livingstons. And they were original

King's land grants on the Hudson River. So it was a very

dysfunctional, put mildly, family. And, you know, suddenly three locks

show up on Eleanor's door when she's 14. And she tells a friend

they're there to keep her uncle out. And serious historians have

speculated that she was sexually abused. And suddenly her grandmother

sends her to a girls' school in England called Allenswood, which has a

very progressive, radical, feminist, atheist, lesbian headmistress who

sees this young girl who is just a mess. She is, she says in her

diary, I'm lonely, I'm afraid of everything, you know, basically just

miserable. And she takes her and transforms her in three years. So,

you know, that piece of the story I just love and I'm still

researching and writing about. And then, of course, she has to come

back and come out in high society, sees cousin Franklin, his cousin

twice removed. They fall in love, they get married. And then she has

this other great trauma. They have five children, six children, one

dies. But when she's in 1918, so they've been married 15 years or so,

she discovers that Franklin's having an affair. And then within which

just the world drops out from under her because she's already so

sensitive to being unloved. And then, of course, he gets polio a

couple of years later. So however she feels about the affair, she's

got to take care of the husband who's now suddenly can't walk in the

space of an evening. He goes from being John Kennedy athlete to can't

get out of his own bed. And the 20s are this huge transformation

because he says, I need you to keep my name alive in the state of New

York. And she starts getting involved with women's organizations. And

of course, that changes her. New York is a hotbed of feminist women

who are making change and women got the right to vote. And, you know,

that's exciting. That was wonderful, exciting reading for me. And

then, of course, she gets to the White House and does everything we

all know about. So, you know, but you know where she's, once you know

where she's come from, it all is more amazing. This is truly an

exceptional person. You know, Jim Collins, the great leadership writer

who wrote Good to Great, He has the 5th level leadership. These are.

Like, there's only a handful of people he puts in that category and

Eleanor's 1 of them. So that's why I. I could, I could go on for

another hour. How long do

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do you. She's 1 of those fundamental historical.

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people who, after her husband died, she, like Catherine Graham, she

went on to even do greater things, working with, you know, the League

of Nations that became the

00:24:11 SPEAKER_01

U.N. and all of that. And that all goes back to Madame Marie Syvestre,

who was that headmistress. You can exactly trace all of her work for

social reform, her values around those things to Marie Suvesse. And on

the day Eleanor dies in her bed at Valkill, Marie's letters to her

from 1905 are in her bedside table, because Marie died in 1905. Wow.

Yeah, it's a great story. It hasn't been told in a way that satisfies

me. I have a book proposal. I haven't gotten it bought yet.

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That would be a great movie for this time. You

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know, it appears there's a TV series about her whole life taken. There

is should be coming out, taken from Blanche Weasley Cook's three

volume work biography

00:25:05 SPEAKER_01

work biography on Eleanor. So I assume they'll cover that period more

deeply. I still want to write my

00:25:13 SPEAKER_00

book, though. So I want to ask a question like on your publishing

path, like, you know, just kind of the business side of that for you.

So, I mean, you said you're working on a book proposal. Are all of

your books are traditionally published? Yes. So in that journey, I

mean, when you pitch that first book, I mean, how did you think that

was going to go? I mean, you didn't. You didn't really know, right?

What happened was

00:25:44 SPEAKER_01

was I had a friend I was writing with and she said, we should go to

this writer's conference. And I'm like, I don't, you know, why? Like

I'm right. You know, she's like, no, no, I just think we should go.

And there's going to be agents there. So you

00:26:00 SPEAKER_01

signed up in advance. I signed up with somebody and I got, and you

send them your manuscript. So I sent them leadership, Eleanor

Roosevelt way. And, I came in, Lynn Whitaker was her name. She's not

in business anymore. And I remember she said, I don't know why you're

here, but this book should be published. You know, I'm happy to take

it. So I said, okay. And then she told me what to put in the, you

know, what sections to put in the proposal. And she sold it to

penguins, but actually she sold it to apprentice hall. This is a good

story for writers. Sheldon's print is all great. I had a lovely editor

named Ellen Coleman, who I'm still in touch with, and she made some

wonderful suggestions. I write this advice book. It's, you know, the

chapters are advice chapters, how to find your leadership passion, how

to communicate, how to network. At the end, there's 10 reminders. It's

stories from Eleanor and contemporary women. Ellen had me put in a few

of my own stories. It's pretty good. Prentice Hall is about to publish

it. And I get a call from Lynn, the agent, and she says, Penguin

Business Books Portfolio, which is their business book in

00:27:20 SPEAKER_01

in print, has bought Prentice Hall. And they're only going to take two

of their titles, and yours is not one of them. Literally, the book was

supposed to come out in a month or two. And I said, no, no, no. So

now, admittedly, I was a

00:27:40 SPEAKER_01

lobbyist in Washington, DC, a labor lobbyist. So what I did

00:27:45 SPEAKER_01

next, it'll make more sense. I got the name of the head of Portfolio,

who

00:27:52 SPEAKER_01

it turns out was the biggest business book publisher in the country.

And I got a hold of his office and I said, you've, you've got this

book. I hear you don't, you know, he doesn't want to publish it.

Adrian Zachheim, that was his name. I said, can I get a meeting with

him? So they get me a meeting, you know, they put me on his calendar

and I take the train from D I was in DC up to New York, go to his

office. I walk in to town. He looks at me and says, I don't know why.

Why should I publish this book? She wasn't a leader. She was just the

wife of the president. And I say, as calmly as possible, I think you

got that wrong. And I make my pitch. And he said, well, I hate the

cover. I said, hey, you know, feel free to change it. And he did. He

did a much better cover. And he brought the book up. And it's still in

print. So I was right.

00:28:58 SPEAKER_01

That feels good, doesn't it? Yeah. But I mean, more I mean, more

importantly, the story is about that. You can't give up on your

project. You know, no, no. Just means they don't they aren't agreeing

at this

00:29:09 SPEAKER_02

Just means they don't they aren't agreeing at this moment. That's the

way. And the other thing

00:29:15 SPEAKER_01

thing is, don't get resentful. I mean, I think women, anybody, men

can, too. But. You know, don't. Don't waste time on being resentful or

what idiots they are. Just make a plan. Eleanor said it's as easy to

plan as it is

00:29:32 SPEAKER_01

as easy to plan as it is to dream. I see it as dreams just

00:29:36 SPEAKER_02

just manifested. That's a way to go to achieve it. Yeah. They're not

going to manifest unless you manifest

00:29:44 SPEAKER_01

unless you manifest them. So a plan is what are you going to do

strategically? to make this happen. And trust me, if he hadn't made an

appointment with me, I would have been there anyway. I was going to

see Adrian that time. He was not going to not publish my book. So you

might say I manifested it, but I also made it

00:30:08 SPEAKER_02

it happen. Yeah, you did. So what are you working on now? Oh, excuse

00:30:11 SPEAKER_01

are you

00:30:13 SPEAKER_00

me. Diana, go ahead. I'm sorry. I was just going to say, I mean,

that's for anything like, you know, everything takes a little bit of

chutzpah to keep moving forward. And, you know, like, if you want it

bad enough, like, you can't just be like, oh, well, you know, I mean,

I think everything in business and writing and life. it, you know,

there has to be some perseverance on that journey because it, every

part of it is a roller coaster. You have really, especially in the

book publishing path, like they're really, really high highs and

really, really low lows. And you know, those lows, you have to push

00:30:58 SPEAKER_01

through to get to that high. Well, what I tell people is, and again,

my own children don't say no first. So don't say, Oh, you know,

really, I should do this. I should send it to this person. Oh, but

they won't be interested because, you know, they've never done a book

like my book. Don't say no

00:31:21 SPEAKER_02

first. Let them say no to you. It's OK. I think a lot of people. It's

almost like they're afraid of being accepted. So look at it. So they

put barriers

00:31:32 SPEAKER_00

up. That's a real thing. The fear of success. it's, it's an actual

thing. And it's, you know, there, there are all these coaches who, you

know, talk about mindset and money mindset and overcoming your blocks.

But you know, that fear of success is a real thing because we, we live

inside this kind of bubble, right. Of our comfort zone. And the closer

you get to stepping over that threshold towards the thing you really

want, the more that bubble or I like it as a rubber band pushes

against you and pushes you back and you have to stretch that rubber

band and stretch that comfort zone, you know, and each step gets you

closer, but the closer and closer that you get to possible success,

you know, for a lot of people, not everybody, but for a lot of people,

it becomes, you know, like this almost like a brick wall in the rubber

band that is really hard to break through. It's a legitimate thing.

00:32:32 SPEAKER_01

Yes, I think so. And I think you don't have to think in terms of

success or not success. I think when I look at what I've done, I just

did the next right thing for me. You know, I wanted to write. I heard

what Jim said about writing a book, so I did want to write a book. And

I didn't think I'm not saying I never thought, oh, this could be

success. Of course, everyone has those thoughts. But I just. also

really wanted to do it. And then as I started to do it, I really

wanted to do it because I loved Eleanor. And then I wrote it and I

thought, this book is horrible. No one's going to read this book

because I had no perspective and I'd never written a book. And I was

sure no one would read the book, but I liked it. And I was totally

wrong. I was totally wrong also because I thought young women would

like it, like teenagers and maybe 20-somethings, maybe if I was lucky.

And then it turned out as I started speaking and going to these big

corporations, I remember Southern Company, which is a big power

company in the South, one of their vice presidents came in, carrying

my book to have me sign it, and there were all these yellow sticky

notes in the top. I'll never forget that. I thought, oh my gosh, It

really spoke to her. So you just never know. You just kind of do the

next right thing for yourself. Yeah. Doing your

00:34:02 SPEAKER_00

best. Yeah. And I think that's beautiful advice because I think, you

know, we get caught up on success. Like we got caught up on that end

goal of success and forget about the steps that we have to take to get

there. And every step you take is successful. You know what I mean?

you have success in every, whether it's a 10% shift or a 20% shift

towards that end goal, like every one of that is a success that should

be celebrated. Yeah, yeah, that's

00:34:33 SPEAKER_02

right. Yeah, that's me with my to-do list. Every time I can mark

something off and have accomplished something, those are little

successes and you need to revel in the fact you've been able to do

that. It's like, For an author, the first time they get that proof of

their book, they're holding a real book in their hand. That's such an

amazing feeling. Yeah, for five minutes. Yeah, but you actually, out

of the millions of people writing, you're one of them who actually got

it in print.

00:35:10 SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm not very good at remembering that part, you know, because I

just, I just have more always more than I want to do. Oh, yeah,

there's always a lot

00:35:19 SPEAKER_02

a lot more. But I, I try to tell because we do book marketing. And

it's like, I try to tell people now be ready when that book comes. I

want to see a photo of you holding it because it's probably going to

be one of the best smiles of your life.

00:35:35 SPEAKER_00

Especially that first book. I mean, you know, I think that when you've

moved into having multiple books, but like that first book holding the

print copy, like not your galleys and, you know, it's not marked up by

your editor, like that, that one that's going to sit on the

bookshelves is. I mean, there's a moment in that. It's yes, it's very

00:35:57 SPEAKER_01

cool. It's cool. One time I got on a plane and someone was reading the

book, you know, like, It's, it's amazing to have your work in the

world. I just wrote my first play, not just six years ago, but it's,

you know, we've had some productions and that's all, that's a whole

other experience where I have an actress reading my

00:36:17 SPEAKER_01

an actress reading my words. And that's a really strange one because

it's almost like you didn't write it anymore because you've been

writing and rewriting and rewriting. And suddenly it's up there. Like

I have to keep saying to myself, you wrote that because someone else

is doing what you wrote. That's a very different

00:36:39 SPEAKER_02

a very different deal. Yeah. So you have a lot. What else do you do?

You write plays. You've had book published. You wrote articles. You

were a journalist. You lead your leadership. You're a speaker.

Anything else on the agenda? Um, well, I'm, I'm learning

00:36:59 SPEAKER_01

pickleball. I actually wasn't sure I'd write another

00:37:04 SPEAKER_01

play, but I was some, a very accomplished playwright said to

00:37:10 SPEAKER_01

me, I said, how do you decide what player, you know, you're going to

write? Like, I feel like I won't have another idea. And he said, well,

I, I write what I have to write.

00:37:24 SPEAKER_01

what I have to write. And it turned out there was something I had to

write. Now, I got there because I did something out of the box that

was definitely risky, more risky for other people than for me. But I

took a comedy class. I took an eight-week comedy class, stand-up

comedy. I always thought I could do stand-up comedy. Although when I

told my son that, he immediately said, but you're not

00:37:56 SPEAKER_01

funny. And he said, yeah, and you actually weren't good at soccer. But

we got past that. So I took this class, and in writing, so you have to

figure out what your theme is. And I thought my theme was going to be

my mother, who did some very funny things. But he said, no, it has to

be you. let's talk about you, you know? So he said, what do you do?

And I said, well, I, you know, I ride, I play tennis, pickleball, I

hike, I have a dog. He's like, no, no, no. I said, well, you know, my

husband has Parkinson's and I'm his caregiver, but not super happy

about that. And he's like, oh, that's it. That's your theme. And I'm

like, really? He goes, yep. That's what you look for in comedy.

Something that's, you know,

00:38:49 SPEAKER_00

Painful, painful, but you can make it funny. I wrote this

00:38:53 SPEAKER_01

routine. People can find it on YouTube, on my channel, Robin Kerr.

It's just four and a half minutes. And it was hugely successful within

a room of, you know, 75 people who were, it's Ojai, so everyone knew

everybody, including me. But there were people who came up to me and

thanked me for my honesty about this, you know, hard issue of

caregiving. and the humor. So I thought, hmm, maybe I should write, I

think I have more to say. So I wrote a modern love column for the New

York Times, which keep your fingers crossed, I'm supposed to hear next

month or so. And I liked that column. I expanded on this idea and I

thought, this is good. And I thought, I still have more to say about

this. So I wrote a play. And I mean, I just had to write the play. And

this morning, actually, in my this writers group I have, I read them

about 10 pages and they loved it. Like they really responded to it.

It's funny and it's about caregiving and the serious matter of a

serious illness. And how do you deal with that and try to find and

figure out how to find something beautiful and joyful in

00:40:19 SPEAKER_02

that. And I won't tell you the

00:40:20 SPEAKER_01

you the answer, but perhaps you'll get to see the play. So that's what

I'm working on. I'm very excited because I'm just, you know, you know,

sometimes, especially after been writing as long as I have, you know,

if you have something and I just, I feel like I have something. It

meets my value as a writer of, wanting to make change in the world. I

don't just write. It's okay to write for your own fun or satisfaction

or whatever, but it's not how I write. I write to make change. Well,

that sounds like an amazing subject

00:40:59 SPEAKER_02

matter. And to find the humor in it is, you could probably help a lot

of people that are, you know, just starting down that road. If you

don't keep your sense of humor when you're a caregiver, It's really

hard. Yes. Yes. I hope so. Stay tuned. We must know when you're having

a reading or something. Yeah, I'm going to do a

00:41:21 SPEAKER_02

going to do a reading. I think I'll probably wait until

00:41:25 SPEAKER_01

wait until September. But if you're interested, Kathleen, I'll let you

know. But Donna, you're not here, right? I'm not. Yeah. But I'll let

you know, because I would like to have an audience of people who are

writers. Oh, I would love to come see

00:41:43 SPEAKER_02

love to come see it. I love plays

00:41:46 SPEAKER_01

anyway, so. Okay. Well, you know, the Ohio Playwrights Conference is

here. Right. And the festival is next week, August 1st through 4th.

Right. They use the Thatcher School Theater and it's pay what you

00:41:59 SPEAKER_02

and it's pay what you can. Sure. It's, well,

00:42:03 SPEAKER_02

Well, like Friday night, we have Into the Woods opening with the Ojai

Performing Arts Theater. Yes, I'm with it. There's a theater up in

this little

00:42:08 SPEAKER_04

Arts Theater.

00:42:11 SPEAKER_01

little valley. Yes. A lot of theaters. It's true. It's true.

Unfortunate that the second weekend is the same as ours, but I'm going

Friday night. So maybe I'll see you there. I'll be doing the party.

I'm the wine pourer. Oh, OK. The Ojai playwrights are some of the top

playwrights

00:42:27 SPEAKER_01

are some of the top playwrights in the country.

00:42:31 SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah, it's an incredible

00:42:32 SPEAKER_01

an incredible conference. We've been sending plays to New York for

many years. It's been going over 20 years. And I did workshop my play,

The Shot, the one about domestic abuse, my first play, about Catherine

Graham. I did workshop it at Playwright

00:42:51 SPEAKER_02

Conference. Yeah, that's a wonderful organization and what they do,

the material they put out. Yeah.

00:42:59 SPEAKER_02

Well, listen, this has been really interesting. We went a little

couple places I didn't know we were going to go. And I love it,

though, because I try to tell people, especially nonfiction writers,

you know, if you're passionate about the subject matter, there's going

to be some place you can talk about it. And what you need to do is

start finding out, you know, where could you introduce yourself to a

group? to be helping inspire them. It's not just because you think you

can sell them books, but talk about your passion that made you write

the book. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What you discovered.

00:43:34 SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So, Robin, where can people find you? Do you have social media,

website? I have a

00:43:40 SPEAKER_01

a website, robingerber.com, and I have a professional page on

Facebook. I really don't spend my time on Social media, I'm afraid.

The truth is what you're saying about not making money writing books.

You don't make money writing books. I mean, leadership don't. I mean,

you do if you, you know, hit it big, but leadership, Eleanor Roosevelt

way has been in print for 22 years. And I've made a total of about

$50,000 from the book book sales. Exactly. I've made, as you say, a

lot more money because. It has evolved a speaking career from that

book. Barbie and Ruth, same thing. I got a $60,000 advance in 2008,

and it's never earned out. However, it has been optioned. It was

optioned for seven years by a movie company. It was optioned for three

years by a guy who wanted to make a musical. So I probably made more

than double the advance on option payments. So that's another stream

of revenue, but straight up book

00:44:52 SPEAKER_01

up book sales. You know, I'm not saying people don't make it, but it's

very, very hard. It is very

00:45:01 SPEAKER_00

very hard. It doesn't mean that people shouldn't do it. I keep

writing, keep publishing. I mean, but it's very rare that people, you

know, strike it

00:45:13 SPEAKER_01

strike it rich. John Grisham's or Yeah, Michael Lewis, you know. Yeah,

he

00:45:20 SPEAKER_02

does. And all of his Michael Lewis, almost all of them become movies.

Which is very strange. Harlan Corbin. Yeah, Harlan Corbin, almost all

of his books

00:45:30 SPEAKER_00

almost all of his books are a Netflix limited series now. Diana

Gabaldon, she wrote Outlander as a test to see if she could write a

book and look at what that book did.

00:45:43 SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you know, there's a story my daughter told me that she was

actually sued because I guess that story came from some anime or

Japanese story or

00:45:53 SPEAKER_01

story or something. Outlander? Yeah. I don't think so. No, that was

00:45:57 SPEAKER_00

I don't

00:45:59 SPEAKER_02

was just, that suit got knocked down. You know what I'm talking about?

Yeah, I read about it. It was in Publishers Weekly and it got thrown

out of court. Okay. Somebody just thinking just because you have a

similar theme that time walking and that that's not the same story.

And there I

00:46:20 SPEAKER_00

And there I mean, there are other stories that have time walking, like

the time travelers wife. And, you know, I mean, even. Discovery of

witches like they time walk in that. I

00:46:32 SPEAKER_01

in that.

00:46:33 SPEAKER_00

mean, it's not an off concept. Yeah.

00:46:36 SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You know, I did, by the way, write a novel. I wrote a book about

what if Eleanor Roosevelt had run for president in 1952, which is

suddenly very relevant, called Eleanor versus Ike. It's an alternative

history, and it's a very fun book. That sounds like a fun one. Yeah.

Very fun. I loved writing, and I won't tell you what happens. Don't

ask me. We can put

00:47:02 SPEAKER_00

whatever books up on our, on our webpage for this episode that you

want, if you want to send them to me and whatever you

00:47:11 SPEAKER_01

you want, they're all on my website. Oh, okay. Yeah. We'll link. We, I

always link to our

00:47:18 SPEAKER_00

speaker, our guests website. So, I mean, this, this one has been a

pleasure. It's very interesting. Like your subject matters are very

interesting. you know, and I, I think that strong women throughout

history, like their stories are really important because like you

00:47:40 SPEAKER_00

you said, most men don't have to say we got lucky or, you know, so

being able to tell those stories

00:47:46 SPEAKER_00

those stories and, you know, and share that positive look of, you

know, even like if you have rough beginnings, you can overcome that

and become. you know, somebody that is important and offers change and

is progressive and all of those things. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And help do

something for the better good. Right.

00:48:07 SPEAKER_02

do something for the better

00:48:11 SPEAKER_02

Well, thank you, Robin, for being here. Thank you, Kathleen. I'll see

you around town. Oh, yes. We'll see each other and we'll we'll talk

next time. So thank you, everyone, for tuning in to this episode of

Talking Book Publishing. And our guest was Robin Gerber. If you want

to find her website, it's Robin Gerber dot com. And we'll have that on

our site. And of course, as always, download us and subscribe on all

of your favorite podcasts. outlets. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you.

Bye. Bye.